Earth's Future - Revelation and Beyond

[Alisa]

for the *insatiably* curious... :wgrin:

Since most of r-com's topics seem to end up wandering all over the place or veer off into directions other than what the person who posted the topic originally hoped or planned for, this is one of those topics like the "more than just Stargate..." topic that can pick up and wander into whatever direction the winds of time take its participants.

So, I've been collecting a whole host of topics for later review or discussion somewhere in time...
Some of this is actually "world" news... but might fit better as a "POV".
Some of these are merely interesting, while some of these are just outright weird or bordering on the bizarre side. I'm also not sure if all of the links will work at all times, so... Anyway, please feel free to discuss... :)

NOTE - items (only) in this first posting appearing within the
{{double fancy brackets}} were my own 1st reactions.. ;)


"Nineteen Eighty-Four Is Coming True" (http://www.raidersnewsnetwork.com/full.php?news=1302)
Added: Dec 15th, 2006 10:26 AM
by Peter Wilson (is The Australian's Europe correspondent).
© The Australian


"U.S. To Defend Space With Military Force" (http://www.raidersnewsnetwork.com/full.php?news=1252)
{{could be subtitled as "protecting our borders at *any* cost"}}
Added: Dec 14th, 2006 7:12 AM
By Bill Gertz
Copyright The Washington Times


"General Foresees 100 Year War Against Terrorism" (http://www.raidersnewsnetwork.com/full.php?news=1254)
Added: Dec 14th, 2006 7:15 AM
General foresees 'generational war' against terrorism
By Bill Gertz
Copyright The Washington Times


"Goldeneye 80 UAV Designed For Urban Warfare" (http://www.raidersnewsnetwork.com/full.php?news=1118)
Added: Dec 8th, 2006 6:53 AM
by Staff Writers
Warrenton VA (SPX)
..{{"Stargate" realities??}}..
Copyright 1995-2006 - SpaceDaily

"From Biometric Scanning to Microchips and the Mark of the Beast?" (http://www.raidersnewsnetwork.com/full.php?news=52)
Added: Oct 10th, 2006 8:35 AM
Or How We Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Coming of Antichrist
{{... :eek2: ... ;) ...}}
By Thomas Horn
For News With Views.Com

...
"We've changed out {{sic, s/b "We've changed our..."?}} thinking since September 11," a company spokesman said, "Now there's more of a need to monitor evil activities."
...
Consider the following:

* As far back as 1973...
...
Then on 9-11{{i.e., 2001}}, terrorism came along, the perfect incentive for mandating everything from face scanning to implantable chips as not only inevitable, but perhaps simply a good idea.

These are differences in degree, not in kind, and forecast a prediction made long ago:

"And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name" (Rev. 14:9-11)

"Chipping Away At Freedom" (http://www.raidersnewsnetwork.com/full.php?news=1091)
Added: Dec 7th, 2006 7:31 AM
...The country may be evenly split over ID cards but opposition to radio-based tracking is overwhelming...
{by} Frank Fisher
Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2006.


"666 Is Coming: One Generation Is All 'They' Need" (http://www.raidersnewsnetwork.com/full.php?news=1156)
Added: Dec 10th, 2006 11:11 AM
...A generation is all they need
One day we will all happily be implanted with microchips, and our every move will be monitored. The technology exists; the only barrier is society's resistance to the loss of privacy...
KEVIN HAGGERTY
SPECIAL TO THE STAR
Copyright Toronto Star Newspapers Limited.


"Panelists Spar Over National, Mandatory ID Cards" (http://www.raidersnewsnetwork.com/full.php?news=1301)
Added: Dec 15th, 2006 10:24 AM
By Michael Martinez, National Journal's Technology Daily
© 2006 by National Journal Group Inc. All rights reserved.


"Doctor alleges plans underway to "Microchip" Newborns in U.S. and Europe" (http://www.raidersnewsupdate.com/articles/agoracosmopolitan-com-home-Frontpage-2007-01-08-01290-html)
Compiled by Lucien Desjardins
Copyright © 2005 The Canadian. All rights reserved.



"Is Mel Gibson Trying To Tell Us Something About The Year 2012 And The Return Of Christ?" (http://www.raidersnewsnetwork.com/full.php?news=1151)
Added: Dec 10th, 2006 11:01 AM
Mel Gibson's "Apocalypto"
...Rumble in the jungle...
By Godfrey Cheshire
© Copyright 2006, Independent Weekly


"Israel Sees Similarities Between Ezekiel's Prophecies, Today's Mideast Reality As Uncanny" (http://www.raidersnewsnetwork.com/full.php?news=1196)
...Modern day Gog and Magog...
Added: Dec 12th, 2006 7:05 AM
{by} Ines Ehrlich
(Ines Ehrlich is an editor at Ynetnews)
Copyright © Yedioth Internet. All rights reserved.


"Iran website heralding 'Mahdi' by springtime" (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53577)
State media: Shiite messiah to kill archenemy in Jerusalem, may arrive during next equinox
Posted: December 31, 2006, 6:04 p.m. Eastern
© 2006 WorldNetDaily.com


...and that's probably wayyyyyyy *more* than enough to start with... :D

[Elorie Alton]

Alissa, I think you are worring about the wrong thing here.

Mark 13 (New International Version)

Signs of the End of the Age

1As he was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, "Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!"
2"Do you see all these great buildings?" replied Jesus. "Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."
3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, 4"Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?"
5Jesus said to them: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 6Many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and will deceive many. 7When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 8Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains.
9"You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them. 10And the gospel must first be preached to all nations. 11Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.
12"Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 13All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
14"When you see 'the abomination that causes desolation' standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15Let no one on the roof of his house go down or enter the house to take anything out. 16Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 17How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 18Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again. 20If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them. 21At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'Look, there he is!' do not believe it. 22For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect—if that were possible. 23So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.
24"But in those days, following that distress,
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
25the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
26"At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.
28"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 29Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door. 30I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 31Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

The Day and Hour Unknown

32"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come. 34It's like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with his assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch.
35"Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn. 36If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. 37What I say to you, I say to everyone: 'Watch!'



This whole passage seems to describe events that could be happening now, but if you look at history, it also describes events that have happened several times during recorded history. In fact it fits events during most of history. But if you notice the translators have titled the first part of Mark 13 as “Signs of The End of The Age” not signs of the end of Time. In fact Jesus even says “I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.”

Personally I think he is warning people to beware of those that preach the end of time, who look for signs instead of living by his commandments of “Loving God” and “Loving you neighbor.” These are in truth really enough, if you just pay attention to these two things then it just doesn’t matter when the end of time will come. Each one of us faces our own end that is surely coming and is in all probability closer that any “FUTURE END OF TIME”

When you understand that all the predictions, all the searching for signs, keeps the mind focused away from daily living, then you understand why Jesus warned against it so many times. If you focus your spiritual life away from now, you lose all opportunity to do his work, you don’t see that it’s the people here, around you that you should be interested in.




Matthew 5 (New International Version)

Do Not Worry

25"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?
28"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But
seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.



In Matthew 5 we are specifically told not to worry about the future, that God will take care of us, Notice he doesn’t say, do not dream dreams, do not seek wisdom, but very specifically do not WORRY, because it focuses in on ourselves and not outward on others.

The predictions of Armageddon have been going on for years and all they do is cause needless worry, the very thing Jesus has told us not to do. It makes you wonder just who are these “false Prophets” are anyway. I would say that an awful lot of them appear to be “Good Christians”.

Elorie

[Alisa]

Originally posted by Elorie Alton
Alissa, I think you are worring about the wrong thing here.
...
The predictions of Armageddon have been going on for years and all they do is cause needless worry, the very thing Jesus has told us not to do. It makes you wonder just who are these “false Prophets” are anyway. I would say that an awful lot of them appear to be “Good Christians”.
trends... when it comes to earth's future and how others connect it to biblical prophecies in one form or another...
I've noticed that some replies (yours and especially Mriana's) of bringing attention to these things are calling this *worrying* - personally on my part! (First, it was Knightstorm getting picked on... now it's me... oh well, comes with the subject matter *territory* - like "water off a duck's back" - in this particular situation anyway.) Please understand that I didNOT write these articles... someone else did. I merely found them. IMO, some of these articles are actually NEWS-worthy... ;)
other articles are just *fun* things to read about for adding to the idea of - and reinforcing Tv's Smallville phrase, articles on "the wall of weird."

Please also take NOTE! For one thing, I've made my peace about this future prophecy stuff a long time ago (1982, in fact). Can't change it - just accept it, and take one moment at a time. (I have noticed over the years, unless you're a suicide maniac, and more recently an extremist Muslim - who believe it is their duty to kill everyone who disagrees with their POV and spiritual beliefs-)... Everyone else who has not come to that part of accepting it - seems to be *worrying* about it.

And yes, I will admit, before 9-11-2001, it always bothered me some of these headlines were making the news now and then, so I sort of dreaded the so-called Day of the Anti-Christ and "the Mark of the Beast" with the "mark in the right hand or forehead." However, ever since September 11, 2001 came along, just as Thomas Horn writes-

"From Biometric Scanning to Microchips and the Mark of the Beast?"
Added: Oct 10th, 2006 8:35 AM
Or How We Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Coming of Antichrist
By Thomas Horn
For News With Views.Com

"We've changed out {{sic, s/b "We've changed our..."?}} thinking since September 11," a company spokesman said, "Now there's more of a need to monitor evil activities."

Then on 9-11 {{i.e., 2001}}, terrorism came along, the perfect incentive for mandating everything from face scanning to implantable chips as not only inevitable, but perhaps simply a good idea.
I completely agree... :cool:
and completely agree *especially* with his article's subtitle
Or How We Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Coming of Antichrist
It's amazing what a tiny event like 9-11-2001 willl do to transform your own personal outlook on life in more ways than one. This was one I am in complete agreement with.
Let the monitoring begin! :eek2:
:p

Perhaps also, you're forgetting to read the more fascinating portions of what's in here, too. ;)
take them with a grain of salt or passionately believe beyond... earth's future generations have got planets to go soaring off visiting to, and people are getting sidetracked with things of this nature, instead!
:SHS:


anyway, the point of mentioning these articles here is mostly sort of 2-fold...
1) POV - just to show how crazy our world is getting; and
2) POV - because some of it *is* actually interesting to read... and no one else seems to have stumbled upon reading them or following up on them at r-com, so I took the time out of my schedule to track the more intriguing ones instead.

...a mysterious r-com member with an alias of "Enigma" used to bring these sorts of things to the attention of r-com (both web sites) and mostly everyone (from what I saw) usually wrote her off as a looney... haven't seen any of her postings for several months (and I've grown into missing her proverbial "walls of weird"), and wondered what happened to her... (any clues out there? ...and NO, *i* am not her, as a certian other r-com member used to imagine me as!) :rolleyes:


PS - if Mriana is looking for a topic to move the discussion noted at-
Originally posted in the General forum > r-com topic
"Genes (no, not EWRs, but DNA and RNA)"
bizarre *genetics* discussion - possibly leading into creatures written in John's book of "Revelation" (http://bbs.roddenberry.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=55356#post55356)
she can discuss it here...
that way, her own topics can remain as pristine and pure as possible, and this is as good a place as any (and even moreso with all of the above articles to include now, too!). :wgrin:

In view of the articles listed within this particular topic ("Earth's Future - Revelation and Beyond"), I would *prefer* to take a more light-hearted approach to that particular discussion, if possible. I have an idea I know which way Mriana wanted to go, but I've reinforced my POVs into all this with actual current events articles. :cool:

People can debunk an ancient (historical and/or spiritual) book any time and method possible, but you can't stop those *mad scientists* from doing what they're doing (except by government decree, and not always then, at times), even IF it appears that that those *mad scientists* might actually be attemting to fulfill items predicted centuries ago. Nostradamus made similar predictions, and no one seems to debunk *HIM*. There's an obvious DOUBLE standard going on there.

Since these all seem to be related or connected in some form, might as well toss in Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and whoever he's favoring into this discussion mix as well (Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez? Syria? Russia? North Korea?).


{edited: added clarification...}

[Alisa]

When I initially came across one of the above articles... I was thinking of all of you Stargate viewers. So, I tossed it into the list as a *treat* for the more dedicated Stargate viewers- :)
I thought you'd all enjoy reading about it...

"Goldeneye 80 UAV Designed For Urban Warfare"
((please see link at first post (by Alisa) (http://bbs.roddenberry.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=55442#post55442), instead))
Added: Dec 8th, 2006 6:53 AM
by Staff Writers
Warrenton VA (SPX)
..{{"Stargate" realities??}}..
Copyright 1995-2006 - SpaceDaily

well, that UAV might be a bit bigger than the Stargate UAV model used in SG-1... :cool:

I especially thought it was kind of *cool* that these UAV's actually exist, and aren't just some fictional Tv prop guy's imagination... Of course, I also thought the first few times I'd see those things in miniaturized form going thru the stargate, I got the impression that Richard Dean Anderson (SG-1's Jack O'Neill) got a kick outta watching them things actually fly for real... :p

flying drones... taking off into the blue yonder...
"...*that* never gets OLD..." (Jack O'Neill, SG-1) ;)

[Alisa]

health category... here's another new one for "the WALL of Weird".

adding one more reason to watch out when going "out" to eat in public places...
{{...this article has pictures too!! yuk!}}
Please click on link in article title for complete details.

posted on the WorldNetDaily web site...
"Rare brain worms
latest border disease" (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53761)
Posted: January 13, 2007, 1:00 a.m. Eastern
© 2007 WorldNetDaily.com

(INVASION USA)
...Fatal disease found in developing countries with poor hygiene habits hits South Texas...

Medical professionals in South Texas have identified another disease that has apparently slipped across the border – caused by a rare brain worm that can be fatal and is being spread by unsanitary food-handling practices.
...
Symptoms for Renaldo Ramirez, 50, of Houston, began with mild headaches.
...
"It was a mild headache, but it wouldn't go away," Ramirez said. "It was just there and it wouldn't go away with Tylenol."
...
The risk for U.S. citizens has been considered rare due to strict food processing and handling regulations, especially for pork products, and generally high levels of hygiene.

The condition is very rare in Muslim countries where eating pork is forbidden.
...
"Sometimes little black specks come out of the lesions and sometimes little fibers," said Stephanie Bailey, a Morgellons patient.

It's those different-colored fibers that pop out of the skin that may be the most bizarre symptom of the disease.
...
New Jersey recently had troubles with e-coli at several Taco Bell eateries.
now, there's tapeworms to watch out for (down south USA).

... and people thought scabies was bad (and it is - it's also highly contagious) when someone enters a medical facility! Makes you want to watch out where or what you're sitting on - in the waiting room!

Anyway,
Beware while visiting out-of-state, too! I know of someone close to me who is very, very ill and travels a lot, and thus eats out a lot (I heard she's a fairly strict vegetarian, so is naturally prone to visit places with "salad" bars). :(


I'd also like to add to the list of weird for whatever "black specs" are found on recycled, paper toweling. Sure, it's nice to think of nature; but when black specks and little threads of blackish dust gets into your skin after using recycled paper towels -- and the person finds themself scratching an itch that Won't go away, because it's actually caused by those little "black specks" -- that's just plain weird. (It might also be an allergic reaction from contact with the paper to any ink or debris that may have also been pressed into the recycled paper during the recycling process -- that's my best guess... I don't know, but it may be a good idea to bring your own wet-wipes for super-sensitive skin types prone to this sort of itching that is caused from no apparent *other* reason. Also, track when the itching starts. If it isn't food related or from nervous tension, and you *know* it ain't "scabies", check those PAPER towels -- Those culprit black specks on the paper product may be the cause of the itching problem...!!) :eek2:

The only thing that seems to help reveal what's causing the itch is Jergens hand or body lotion (I don't know of any other brand that has helped work in this particular situation). If the specks aren't too deep, the lotion helps irritate whatever is causing the itching long enough to bring those specks to the skin's surface. The moment the specks are visible, remove them IMMEDIATELY... amazingly, the itching usually goes away - until the next recycled paper towel encounter.
very, very *Weird*... :rolleyes:


{edited: typos ... details!}

[Dot]

the slaughter houses aren't the cleanest places inthe world.
there's 14 inspectors for the entire country, and they've been told, not to interferre too much.

the only time you here about a slaughterhouse is AFTER someone gets sick. or ICE runs a raid for illegals. SWIFT meat packing had almost 800, 400 got away because SWIFT complained to friends in high places, 400 were caught.

[Alisa]

a few weeks ago I saw a TV news clip about people getting weird strands of what looked like string showing up in their legs and elsewhere in the body (back, arms, anywhere). When it was shown, it seemed to be some mysterious phenomena that no one seemed to know what was causing it. But in light of the article-

"Rare brain worms
latest border disease"
Posted: January 13, 2007, 1:00 a.m. Eastern
© 2007 WorldNetDaily.com
...
I was wondering if these tapeworms weren't connected to that news clip. The strands of what appeared as huge strings looked very similar in color and description to the picture shown in the article.

anyway... Dot- as always, that sort of news is very revealing!
so the (or any) government's alternative plan (to the tapeworms) is to get sick (until a major crisis going out of control results)...? :(
Sounds typical of government. Wait until a MAJOR outbreak shows up (hmmm, *pestilence* or *plague* category), and then try to figure out how to stop it. That's dumb, but typical.

I don't know what my neighbor has, but she's been sick for several months now. She was off and on sick before, and usually got that way while traveling abroad. But I think she's on medical leave now, because whatever it was - put her into the hospital. She also had the headaches that wouldn't go away and severe pain in her stomach (which could be from eating too much broccoli, too, as she is a devout vegetarian).

If it were something intestinal (like too much gassy build-up from broccoli) and not *worm* related, I'd suggest the BRAT diet forumla (bananas, rice, applesauce, tea/toast) as natural healers than relying on synthetic (stomach reliever) medications, because that's what helped restore my health after having a bad bout with too much broccoli and bad spring water. My mom also got so sick (severe vomiting) that the only thing that helped her was the rice (and I think tea combo). It gave her a few more months to live healthy and happy, until the next bout.

What about papaya as an alternative to applesauce? how helpful is that for "standard" stomach upsets?
I've heard it's supposed to be very good for digestive purposes.


But if the condition is tapeworm related - isn't that something only the doctors can remove?? And if strange, colored strands start showing up thruout the entire body, and is *worm* related - that sounds like the little worms have already made a field day of your body. :(

I was also wondering who eats "pork" in public eateries? (pork chops??)
Then I remembered it might be from ham sandwiches or bacon...?
...ham & eggs; bacon on burgers, and in BLT sandwiches.

I wrote off years ago refusing to eat ham sandwiches any more, because most of them felt too slimy (sitting out in the open too long). I also don't get bacon while ordering meals out, unless it's cooked nicely well-done (but not super-overcooked as in burnt completely black... carcinogens!!). ;)

Question--
would nuking it in the microwave help kill off any unwanted buggers, or spread the germs, bacteria, whatever?

This may be part or all psychological, but I have noticed that by putting salads into the microwave for several seconds has helped reduce major illness bouts (in me). I don't think washing the salad ingredients does enough any more; so I've gotten into the habit of (additionally) nuking my salads whenever possible, and especially if it's been ordered take-out food. Of course, you can't do that (microwaving various food items yourself) while eating in restaurants (salad bar included or not). There'd probably be some idiot out there who might abuse any public microwave privileges, and then everything would go back to "square one" on how to resolve these situations... :(

[Mriana]

OK, now that I saw your other post else where about this and looked at this thread again, I understand what is going on here. However, it is 2230 hours and I still have 3 more boards to tell I am alive and well now that I am at home. Unfortunately, Elorie and I don't share those boards and I haven't been on them long enough to contact anyone in such times, so they have no clue of my where abouts. Stress like I've undergone this week and sleeping on a futon for a week doesn't contribute to clear thinking.

I'll get back to this tomorrow or as soon as I can, but I can tell you the 666 thing has some interesting thoughts opposite of the POVs you mentioned, as well as the other things you mentioned. Obviously I'm not thinking clearly or I would have figured out sooner what was happening in this thread.

[Alisa]

Originally posted by Mriana
...Stress like I've undergone this week and sleeping on a futon for a week doesn't contribute to clear thinking.

I'll get back to this tomorrow or as soon as I can, but I can tell you the 666 thing has some interesting thoughts opposite of the POVs you mentioned, as well as the other things you mentioned. Obviously I'm not thinking clearly or I would have figured out sooner what was happening in this thread.
totally understandable! :( :)
take your time... sleep on it, if necessary. It took me several months of trying to figure out which topics to select or which ones seemed more significant than others - and that might have some sort of connection under one united, main topic... ;)

I'm amazed at how so many of these topics can be discussed in all the various forums by some of you people posting in them, in just a few short hours. I think I've been averaging maybe 1 a night for the most part... if even that much. Then I surprise myself when I can post in two topics in the same night... :)

..and Truthfully, I still haven't read all of the articles linked in this topic.. only (main) bits and pieces in each. For me, what's in the first post alone is enough material for at least a week's worth of reading... I just keep wondering how many articles everyone else has actually gotten thru, if any - because a few of them were / seemed to be more on the extremely LONNNNNG side, IMHO... ;)

[Dot]

Hey ALisa..
I LOVE when a thread goes off in search of intelligent responses
that's that investigative conversation and anlysis is all about.

Sometimes when looking for something, I stumble across something totally different and equally amazing.

A closed mind is like a closed parachute,,it might be packed full of good things, but doesn't mean anything until you hve to use it :)

[Mriana]

Can anyone make sense of this? http://www.angelfire.com/realm/shades/demons/numberofthebeast.htm The last sentence on this whatever you want to call it, is the only thing I understand.

Here: http://www.popsubculture.com/pop/bio_project/sub/666.html 666 is allegedly said to spell Nero, symbolize the Pope of Rome, Martin Luther, Hitler, and others of the PAST. None of them were of course.

This one is supposedly by a person with a Ph.D. rather than those who may or may not have a BS degree: http://www.chez.com/cosmos2000/Numbers/666_Origins.html The pagan sun god makes a lot of sense if you have studied the Pagan origins of Christianity.

Let's take away the math, science, etc along with all the other crap and use another mark that my grandfather swore up and down about was the mark of Cain- being Black. :rolleyes: That is complete and total BS esp considering we all came out of Africa millions of years ago and adapted to the different climates.

Now given that stupidity, what logical reason do I have to believe in (ominous voice) "the Mark of the Beast"? I have none because there is no reasonable conclusion as to what is true and what is not, esp since there has been a lot of false prophesy about the "Second Coming" and who was or is the "Anti-Christ". There is nothing factual to base any of this on given all the other mythological ideas that came along as marks of this or that. My grandfather at one time he was alive stated that these bar codes that are scanned so we can buy things, have on credit/debit cards, etc was (ominous voice again) "the Mark of the Beast". Everyone uses these bar codes even if they don't have a credit/debit card in one form or the other. We have for decades now and we are still here.

The only way the "End of the World" will occur is if humans cause it with nuclear weapons and alike. Hopefully we don't do it, but you know, if we do that, you will find out if you are right or wrong about Jesus, Mahammond, or any other "prophet" decends from the clouds. My bet is, you won't know a thing after that or even realize what happens next until it happens- if it happens. You may very well find it's in your dreams, if you have any after that.

It all comes down to Q's saying, "May whatever god you believe in have mercy on your soul." It could be nothing more than tears and sorrow for what mankind has done to themselves, just as it was when 9/11 hit, and trust me, it was not just human tears and sorrow at the time.

[Kestra]

darling has his own explanation of what the beast is. i'll ask him when he gets home, i want to make sure i get it right. he's the scholarly, intellectual one in this relationship.

[Mriana]

Go for it! I'd love to hear what he has to say. :)

[Elorie Alton]

Yes Kestra, I'd love to hear his explination.

I have long thought "The Mark of The Beast" was more in the thought processes of people than an actual thing like a birthmark.

And Alissa, I am not picking on you anymore than you were me because you already knew how I felt about Revelations, The End of Time and of course "The Rapture". If you hadn't wanted to know my feelings again then why did you make the post in the first place?

Elorie

[Kestra]

well i asked darling about it this morning, he gave me a look. he says it's involved and he didn't have time at this time because he has other ‘duties’ to tend to first, and he has to go look up the bible verse first. he can be quite stubborn at times. don't worry my little prittys i'll get it out of him, i heff my vways. :veg:

[Alisa]

aagh! I forgot about the whole "beast" question thing.
originally posted by Elorie Alton:
And Alissa...
...because you already knew how I felt about Revelations, The End of Time and of course "The Rapture". If you hadn't wanted to know my feelings again then why did you make the post in the first place?
ummm, I thought I answered that in my reply to you already.
Originally posted by Alisa:

anyway, the point of mentioning these articles here is mostly sort of 2-fold...
1) POV - just to show how crazy our world is getting; and
2) POV - because some of it *is* actually interesting to read... and no one else seems to have stumbled upon reading them or following up on them at r-com, so I took the time out of my schedule to track the more intriguing ones instead.
...

PS - if Mriana is looking for a topic to move the discussion noted at-
...
Originally posted in the General forum > r-com topic
"Genes (no, not EWRs, but DNA and RNA)"
bizarre *genetics* discussion - possibly leading into creatures written in John's book of "Revelation"
...
she can discuss it here...
that way, her own topics can remain as pristine and pure as possible, and this is as good a place as any (and even moreso with all of the above articles to include now, too!). :wgrin:

i'm mind-boggled....why take this stuff personally... ??
For once in my life, I'm approaching some portions of earth's future in a different aspect, and still am getting hounded on for it. :rolleyes:

maybe more "beast" stuff later... (Revelation 13)


...and ... as to the genetic human-animal hybrids... just try to remember Tv's "Beauty and the Beast" with Vincent - half man/half lion that's what I was seeing images of...


meantime, on the lighter and more *unique* picturesque POV :D
I found something really outer spacey *alien* looking in the following article... ;)

posted on the Telegraph.co.uk web site...
"N Korea helping Iran with nuclear testing" (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/01/24/wiran24.xml)
By Con Coughlin
Last Updated: 2:29am GMT 24/01/2007
© Copyright of Telegraph Media Group Limited 2007.

North Korea is helping Iran to prepare an underground nuclear test similar to the one Pyongyang carried out last year.
...the intriguing thing in the entire article was the photo... :cool:

you'll need to click on the link in the article title to read it...
after the article's rather serious title caught my attention, I got distracted while scrolling down thru the article itself... ummm... There was a photo of two guys wearing gas masks... now, seriously, most of us know Iran is working with North Korea on nuclear whatevers.

So, instead of reading the entire thing, I found myself staring at the photo of the two guys. Their head gear had modified sunglasses or a modernized space helmet encased within some special, silver fabric for their bodywear...

the photo has a very peculiar look about its "subjects" in question...
it's the way the photo captured the (filming angle?) position of the head-gear masks on the protective suits that makes these two people look VERY *alien* in an outer-space sense... one giant eye... HUGE honking nose and no mouth, unless that *is* the mouth!! use your imagination!! :D
... if I didn't know what humans looked like, those look like E.T. beings!! :eek2:
:p

[Mriana]

Originally posted by Alisa
i'm mind-boggled....why take this stuff personally... ??
For once in my life, I'm approaching some portions of earth's future in a different aspect, and still am getting hounded on for it. :rolleyes:

You're not getting hounded for it, it's just different POVs concerning god. As for your last article, it has nothing to do with god (or gods) or even the second coming. It's people doing it.

Back to POVs: All of us have different view of the world and god. It would appear most of us here do not believe God is sitting in the sky getting ready to swoop down and scoop up all his believers, leaving the rest of us to fend for ourselves for whatever reason- esp with threats. Personally, I don't think this is a very loving god nor is it unconditional love.

I can't see any god putting us here for the sole purpose of waiting for His return. We have to live this life because it is a gift and it's the only life we're going to get. There are no second chances. One gets it right this time or you don't. It's far better to live this life, striving to be all you can be, and hopefully leave this life better for the next generation. Sitting around waiting for God's return doesn't get it.

Now why would a god want us to sit around and wait for his return? I don't sit around and wait for my mother to come visit. Instead, I do something- anything. Wouldn't a god, a truly loving god that is, far rather prefer us to be the best we can be, strive to better all His creation, and appreciate the gift of life He has given us? And why would he want to do everything for us if he put us here to "do his work"? Why would a loving god need to threaten us, if he loves us so much, to love others, do good things, etc etc.? Why would he be so distant (somewhere up in the sky or wherever) if he loves us so much? Wouldn't he'd rather be with us if he loves us? Wouldn't he prefer us to live this life, to work for peace, and take care of this world, so that future generations can appreciate the gift of life too? If not, and he only wants us to sit around and wait, why bother giving us life? It makes no sense.

I, for one, would prefer to live this life, striving to be the best I can be, helping others whenever possible, striving for peace, and hopefully improving this world for future generations. I don't need a threat of any kind to be good either. I don't need a threat to do onto others as I would do onto them either. Shoot, I don't even need a threat of if I don't do something then I won't be scooped up to live with "my father" in Heaven to be good, and to me that's not very loving. I can behave myself even when nobody is watching.

[Dot]

because their god is a republican :D
They like their god like they like their govt..
Big
No interferrence
Ready to squash anyone who disagrees with them ;)

Alisa
Why do you think you are being hounded?

they must have changed the pictures
I see one guy in a gas mask and it is the older style (1945 era)

The thing about Iran is they are descended from the old Persian Empire which had a lot of very modern faces in it.
You wouldn't be able to distinguish a lot of them from us or from the darker latin types.
That's scarier. Because THEY can cross the borders either illegally or with forged papers and no one can tell the difference.

do you want the topic to stay pristine?

[Dot]

ah.. i found it when I went to the news page and not the link you posted here. For those who want to look

yes they are spacey indeed

[Kestra]

how might a Seer from ancient times interpret such a vision?

Alisa, we’re not hounding you, we’re just telling you what we think. we don’t expect you to believe as we do. heck not even we like-minded see eye-to-eye on everything, and that’s ok because we’re individuals with our own life-experiences, education’s and povs. we don’t expect everyone to see as we do, nor agree with us 100%. not even trees cast the same shadow, such is the nature of Being.

Originally posted by Mriana
I can't see any god putting us here for the sole purpose of waiting for His return. We have to live this life because it is a gift and it's the only life we're going to get. There are no second chances. One gets it right this time or you don't. It's far better to live this life, striving to be all you can be, and hopefully leave this life better for the next generation. Sitting around waiting for God's return doesn't get it. i agree with your first sentence, i too do not believe a Higher Being put us here to sit on our laurels asking “when is he going to return and take us away from this godforsaken hellhole” as far as this being our only life, as i’ve stated before, i believe in reincarnation. as i see it demonstrated in my pets over and over and over. and then there’s another part of me, (prolly TGBG’s influence) that says we’re all connected (collective conscious like the Taelons), and that would give one the sense of having lived past lives because of genetic memory. which could serve as a conduit to telepathy, empathy etc. and then as well, the two could walk hand in hand. even having these seemingly ‘contradictive’ thoughts do not create havoc for me, because i see all things connected as well as returning. so for me, both can be true.

Now why would a god want us to sit around and wait for his return? yes, like animals in a zoo. “hey would someone throw me a marshmallow please? i’m begging you!”

[Mriana]

Originally posted by Kestra
then there’s another part of me, (prolly TGBG’s influence) that says we’re all connected (collective conscious like the Taelons), and that would give one the sense of having lived past lives because of genetic memory. which could serve as a conduit to telepathy, empathy etc. and then as well, the two could walk hand in hand. even having these seemingly ‘contradictive’ thoughts do not create havoc for me, because i see all things connected as well as returning. so for me, both can be true.

I don't know, given what I know of TGBG, I don't think he believed in any afterlife or even reincarnation, but that is speculative given what I've learned about his philosophy. However, he may have believed we were interconnected in some way given that we have the ability to empathize with each other, but I don't see how this relates to believing in an afterlife.

Originally posted by Kestra
yes, like animals in a zoo. “hey would someone throw me a marshmallow please? i’m begging you!”

:LOL: That's good, Kestra.

[Alisa]

yikes!! if this says anything at all - I just took about a 4 or 5 hour *nap*. :p
:sleep4:
had a rather interesting dream too... but can't put it into words -- and it really had nothing to do with this topic.. just something about getting home in time to watch a certain favorite TV show, and driving the long route thru a town I grew up in, in order to get home in time to watch the Tv show (DrWho? or something similar)... actually, I think part of my dream was an attempt to get back in here and write my replies to everyone who posted previous to this one. I was running various replies thru my mind, while getting distracted in something else...

anyway, (my apologies...) I also had a bad day the other day... more to do with personality issues that I didn't know were even there, as an "catastrophic issue", in real life from someone I really admire. I'll have to get back to the other comments later... :(
meantime...

[Alisa]

as I just said above -- in the meantime.. ;)
originally posted by Dot:
they must have changed the pictures
I see one guy in a gas mask and it is the older style (1945 era)
...
ah.. i found it when I went to the news page and not the link you posted here. For those who want to look

yes they are spacey indeed
Very Cool!! Wow Dot!
how'd you get the news link to change? I tried everything and gave up. My link still went to the original *strange* photo. Not until I removed the middle part of the link would it go to the 1945-ish looking gas mask photo. But I still couldn't figure out how to get it to go more direct as you did.

anywho... you found the right *E.T* photo. :cool:
I've never seen protective suits that look *that* ultra modern.. I've seen ultra-sleek motorcycle helmets with the goggles area that looks similar to that as in a super-sleek shield, but none of that type in the HAZMAT sort of industry.. the face mask on the silvery suits has a very weird look about its appearance, when thinking in an outer spacey type of first glance.. :D

Also, I just wanted to especially say *thank you* for your encouraging and *inspirational* thoughts of--
originally posted by Dot:
Hey ALisa..
I LOVE when a thread goes off in search of intelligent responses
that's that investigative conversation and anlysis is all about.

Sometimes when looking for something, I stumble across something totally different and equally amazing.

A closed mind is like a closed parachute,,it might be packed full of good things, but doesn't mean anything until you hve to use it :)

that's an interesting *thought* to remember. :)

originally posted by Dot:
do you want the topic to stay pristine?
here? -- pristine?? nah! this topic is more of a pot-o-pourri mix. I had that sort of an idea in mind, since I *know* how our minds tend to wander around connecting bunny trails.. :D
That's why I wrote the following message in my first post about this particular topic--
originally posted by Alisa:

for the *insatiably* curious... :wgrin:

Since most of r-com's topics seem to end up wandering all over the place or veer off into directions other than what the person who posted the topic originally hoped or planned for, this is one of those topics like the "more than just Stargate..." topic that can pick up and wander into whatever direction the winds of time take its participants.

So, I've been collecting a whole host of topics for later review or discussion somewhere in time...
Some of this is actually "world" news... but might fit better as a "POV".
Some of these are merely interesting, while some of these are just outright weird or bordering on the bizarre side. I'm also not sure if all of the links will work at all times, so... Anyway, please feel free to discuss... :)
and so it goes... :wgrin:

[Kestra]

Originally posted by Mriana
I don't know, given what I know of TGBG, I don't think he believed in any afterlife or even reincarnation, but that is speculative given what I've learned about his philosophy. However, he may have believed we were interconnected in some way given that we have the ability to empathize with each other, but I don't see how this relates to believing in an afterlife. i didn’t mean TGBG believed in an afterlife or reincarnation (which i really don’t know), but that he believed we were all interconnected and how that belief influenced me.

Originally posted by Alisa
yikes!! if this says anything at all - I just took about a 4 or 5 hour *nap*.i thought i heard snoring. :D have some :cpot:

had a rather interesting dream too... but can't put it into words -- and it really had nothing to do with this topic.. just something about getting home in time to watch a certain favorite TV show, i had a dream about honey bees and getting a massage. :huh: go figure.
more to do with personality issues that I didn't know were even there, as an "catastrophic issue", in real life from someone I really admire. :Hug:

here? -- pristine?? nah! this topic is more of a pot-o-pourri mix. I had that sort of an idea in mind, since I *know* how our minds tend to wander around connecting bunny trails..my mind wander? naw, my mind's like a steal… oh look! a rabbit.
:Rrun:

[Alisa]

Originally posted by Kestra
originally posted by Alisa:
more to do with personality issues that I didn't know were even there, as an "catastrophic issue", in real life from someone I really admire.
:Hug:
awww, thnx!! :)
here's a heartfelt squishy hug in return :rhug:

Originally posted by Kestra
my mind wander? naw, my mind's like a steal… oh look! a rabbit.
:Rrun: oooooO! a floppy eared one at that... now, watch how that sidepath can turn into an even longer hike...

Originally posted by Kestra
i thought i heard snoring. :D have some :cpot:at 3 a.m., I'm supposed to be sleeping - not just *napping* on the sofa, which is where I was... :D

i thought i heard snoring.
snore?? nahhh. Something worse...! and it's quite repulsive even to myself, too. :eek2:
*Drool* - yes. :p
(facial) slobber drool... when I relax to the point of zonking out, be prepared to have a pillow towel handy. It's really discouraging when waking up with a wet hand from all that slobber drool! (disgusting too!!) blech!!
:sleep3:

... but, as my sister says, I must really be overly-relaxed in order to lose that much complete control over any facial muscles during sleep cycle times... actually, I didn't know you could train yourself to not do that. Whenever I've tried to train myself to stop it, it really feels more like I'm forcing myself to stay awake, and then I end up avoiding a *real* restful / peaceful sleep.

[Elorie Alton]

Originally posted by Alisa
... but, as my sister says, I must really be overly-relaxed in order to lose that much complete control over any facial muscles during sleep cycle times... actually, I didn't know you could train yourself to not do that. Whenever I've tried to train myself to stop it, it really feels more like I'm forcing myself to stay awake, and then I end up avoiding a *real* restful / peaceful sleep.

All kidding aside, I would be more inclined to think that this could be symptoms of sleep apnea and you really should consult a doctor.

Elorie

[Mriana]

Originally posted by Kestra
i didn’t mean TGBG believed in an afterlife or reincarnation (which i really don’t know), but that he believed we were all interconnected and how that belief influenced me.

I wouldn't be surprised in the least if he believed we were all interconnected, but if he was a Humanist, like I've heard and read, then no, more than likely he did not believe in an afterlife or reincarnation. This does not exclude believing that there is some kind of unity and that we are all interconnected though. So, yes, I can buy that last whole-heartedly. :)

[Alisa]

OoooO!! OoooO!! ... here's one of those bunny trails... :D
Originally posted by Alisa:
... but, as my sister says, I must really be overly-relaxed in order to lose that much complete control over any facial muscles during sleep cycle times...
Originally posted by Elorie Alton:
All kidding aside, I would be more inclined to think that this could be symptoms of sleep apnea and you really should consult a doctor.
thanks for the thought and concern... but...
we've already had 2 persons in the family been diagnosed with sleep apnea (they stop breathing while sleeping). I think they're both wearing face masks now to sleep with. They both snored and tried all of the other over-the-counter remedies first (Breathe-Rite nose strips; snore aid drops, etc.).

me... I've tried the Breathe-Rite method, but Only because I needed it during a stuffy sinus cold, or during seriously bad allergy weeks. I'm also usually so quiet (and don't snore), that my hubby often prods and pokes at me every night during his own sleep cycles, to make sure I'm actually there... I swear he's really asleep while doing it, and sort of sleep-walking or sleep prodding in that sense, too! :D


My problem is basic. When I zonk out, I'm out... totally - not there for the world. ;)
It's almost more like having a stroke with muscle damage to the mouth area. Many stroke victims tend to drool at the mouth - but they often do it, while consciously awake. I drool usually only when I first fall asleep, and only if I'm leaning to or on my side. The salivating juices just drop and want to leak out.

(And I'm also a light sleeper - sensitivity to light and the least littlest sounds usually constantly keep me up. Yep... thought real strongly about taking Lunesta, but really all I need is a Caltrate, calcium tablet or fish, or chicken/turkey, or a banana, or noodles, or milk... found out that when I'm *craving* for a simple 10 minute nap, it usually ends up lasting as a 2 or 3 hour sleep cycle, instead!)

It's also weird, because when I'm on the verge of total sleep and flat on my back - a nerve in my body or leg will twitch first; and then within minutes I'm really zonked out, (and) totally relaxed ...and not aware of anything. Someone once told me that I need to relax more... LOL! hey, can't get more relaxed than that!! :wgrin:

I don't snore. I discovered long ago, that regardless of the initial drooling process, my mouth is usually super-sealed shut except for one tiny corner, where the slobber sneaks out. It's sort of like watching a dog slobber, when they're awake, content, and drooling all over. Except my drippy drools occur during the first stages of a deep sleep cycle. And I've also found that I often need vaseline to gently pry my mouth open, once I do get up, because it somehow gets *glued* pasty shut.


i also love that artistic icon of the little girl on the pillow. Find me a soft, comfy pillow, and under the right conditions, I could probably fall asleep just about nearly anywhere... (*grin*) ...especially when over-tired ...and I only had a tuna salad sandwich the night I napped for nearly 5 solid hours - ohhhhh, that pillow and fluffy blanket looked soooooo inviting... just a few minutes to rest up before getting back onto the computer... (yeah, sure - whatever...! ha, ha!)
:sleep4:

[Kestra]

drooling whilst sleeping isn't all that uncommon. i drool once in a while too, hence i keep a towel handy as well as use teri-cloth pillow cases. also, i put chapstick on my lips when i get into bed and upon waking. my lips get dry too. so i keep a tube of chapstick next to my pillow. i love 'bunny trails' they lead to all kinds of fascinating places. :D

[Alisa]

and some *bunny* trails can be quite revealing too... :eek2:


... hoppin' down the *bunny* trail ...
. . . hippity-hoppin. . . and hippity-hoppin'. . .
...la lah laaaaaaah lah laaaaaaaa... :wgrin:
:cool:

:bounce: . . . ooO! look - a giant froggy . . . :frog:

[Alisa]

hmmm, some mighty strange dreams out there - seems to be raining / reigning frogs... *prince charmings* or not... let the people decide :rolleyes:


anywho...
here's another expansion on a series of articles about a certain someone who believes
he is among the *annointed ones* to usher in the next one world governmental system
-- and for the moment, this is definitely one to keep a closer watch on...

(*caution* -- I really don't think the following *annointed* persona would/could or might appreciate any *prince charming* and any other froggy references - even *if* in teasing mode... don't know much about his personality, so it may be best not to go down that hippity-hoppin' trail..)


NOTE: it's obvious that this is another *datesetter* for the history books...
However, this may also be deliberate *datesetting* in the making, regarding our world's current situation... (please click on link in article title for complete details)

posted on the WorldNetDaily web site...
"Iran prepares people for 'messiah miracles'" (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53964)
Government broadcasts series on imminent appearance of apocalyptic Islamic 'Mahdi'

Posted: January 27, 2007, 1:00 a.m. Eastern
© 2007 WorldNetDaily.com

Official Iranian radio has completed broadcasting a lengthy series on the imminent appearance of a messianic figure who will defeat Islam's enemies and impose Islamic Shiite rule over the entire world – even speculating on specific dates the so-called "Mahdi" will be revealed.

After the coming of the 12th imam, or Mahdi, "liberal democratic civilization" will be found only in "history museums," explained the program.
...
This messianic figure will be a direct descendant of Muhammad, according to the broadcasts.

"In short, when he reappears, peace, justice and security will overcome oppression and deceit and one global government, the most perfect ever, will be established," it said.

The Mahdi will appear suddenly, according to the report, in Mecca. Though no one can know the day, Shiites believe, the report actually suggests possibilities in the Muslim calendar.

The Mahdi will lead a cataclysmic battle against a descendant of Muhammad's archenemy, Abu Sofyan, culminating in the cities of Kufa and Najaf. His enemy, though, is destroyed later in Jerusalem.
...

In a videotaped meeting with Ayatollah Javadi-Amoli in Tehran, Ahmadinejad discussed candidly a strange, paranormal experience...

According to a transcript of his comments, ...Ahmadinejad wasn't the only one who noticed the unearthly light. One of his aides brought it to his attention.

The Iranian president recalled being told about it by one of his delegation: "When you began with the words 'in the name of Allah,' I saw a light coming, surrounding you and protecting you to the end."

Ahmadinejad agreed that he sensed the same thing.
...
right - he is an *annointed one* with the power and financial means to accomplish his *glowy* goals... :eek2:

There were a few other news articles, but I don't remember if they were directly connected in *enlightment* of this one. Later... ;)

[Kestra]

no matter where you go, there they are.

[Alisa]

Iran is planning victory celebrations... but what is meant by Iran's comment about revealing something (possibly nuclear related) to its enemy nations on February 11 (2007)? see complete details at:

posted on Yahoo!news web site...
"Iran president vows to push nuke program" (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070202/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iran_nuclear)

By ALI AKBAR DAREINI, Associated Press Writer
February 2, 2007

Copyright © 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.
Copyright © 2007 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.

Also note other articles on Iran...
posted on RaidersNewsNetwork web site...
"Iran Clock Is Ticking" (http://www.raidersnewsnetwork.com/full.php?news=2456)

By Robert Parry
Added: Feb 1st, 2007 7:35 AM

While congressional Democrats test how far they should go in challenging George W. Bush’s war powers, the time may be running out to stop Bush from ordering a major escalation of the Middle East conflict by attacking Iran.
...
But there is growing alarm among military and intelligence experts that Bush already has decided to attack and simply is waiting for a second aircraft carrier strike force to arrive in the region – and for a propaganda blitz to stir up some pro-war sentiment at home.
...
Please click on link in article title for complete details.
...just love the titles... ;)

posted on RaidersNewsNetwork web site...
"Bush 'Spoiling For A Fight' With Iran" (http://www.raidersnewsnetwork.com/full.php?news=2457)

Simon Tisdall, The Guardian
Added: Feb 1st, 2007 7:37 AM
Please click on link in article title for complete details.

[Alisa]

This next bit of news should make a sitting duck's blood boil..!!
Check out the first 5 to 10 minutes of Glenn Beck's program for January 30, 2007 (portion of transcript noted below). I tried to mention this earlier, but ended up taking another 4 hour nap... (oy!)

posted at CNN.com's transcript web site...
"Why are National Guard Powerless on Border?" (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0701/30/gb.01.html)

Aired January 30, 2007 - 19:00:00 ET

...Yesterday, the National Guard honored four of its men for the way they handled a situation while patrolling the border earlier this month. The troops were on patrol when suddenly they were approached by a group of armed men. What did they do? How did they react? What military tactic did they employ to contain the situation?

Well, the National Guard withdrew without confrontation. They did nothing. And was it because they lacked training or courage? No. They pulled back because that`s what they`ve been ordered to do by the suits in Washington. This, even though one of the guys had an automatic rifle with a bullet in the chamber and came within 40 feet of our troops. At that range, death comes at a fraction of a second.

Where did this action all take place? Did it happen in Iraq, Pakistan, on the border of Iran? No. Try Arizona.

According to a National Guard spokesperson the soldiers did exactly what think mission mandated: pull back if they`re approached by armed personnel coming across our border and then contact the Border Patrol who will come and "investigate" the situation. Are you kidding me?

Our strategy for battling illegal aliens armed with machine guns centers around a cell phone. Hmm. Somehow now I don`t feel so safe...
...
Ward Nichols is a representative at the Arizona state legislature.
...
BECK: This is -- you know what? This is Washington at its best. This is let everybody just feel safe. They have taken the National Guard, and I think humiliated them, putting there -- them there. They are less effective than the Minutemen.

NICHOLS: It is. It`s terrible. We have men and women in the National Guard that are putting their lives on the line on the border, and because of bureaucrats in Washington, D.C., and a lack of action, their hands are tied. They can`t even engage properly when they see armed men coming across the border. They basically -- their rules of engagement are basically they cannot fire until fired upon, so one of their friends has to take a bullet before they can return fire.

BECK: Unbelievable. This is all part of Bush`s Operation Jump Start where he got in front of the American people and, again, this is before the election and he`s like I -- we`re tough on the border. We`re really doing something because it`s on fire. I`m going to send those National Guard troops down there, and this is what they`re doing? This is it? What is the point?

NICHOLS: You know, I`m not really sure...
...
BECK: You know, I have to tell you, again, man, I don`t want to sound like I`m coming on -- coming against the National Guard, because I`m not. I feel for these guys. I got to tell you. I would question my service if you put me into this situation.

Here these guys are sitting there. It`s almost like this medal is -- is a bribe to shut up. I don`t know what it is. Explain, somebody in the National Guard, how it is they get medals for doing what? For putting up with the incompetence in Washington?

NICHOLS: Yes. You know, I don`t really know what to say. I was as shocked as you are, that, again, they`re getting medals for supposedly carrying out their duties on things that happen every day across the Arizona-Mexico border.

BECK: By the way, here`s the Border Patrol spokesman. He said -- and I`ll put this up on a full screen so you can see it -- "The National Guard troops did exactly what they were trained to do. They evaded the threat and moved to a safer location and called the Border Patrol."

Good God in heaven, what the hell is wrong with us?

You have been dealing with this for how long, in Arizona? This -- I mean, this is the busiest point for drug smuggling on the entire border, is it not?

NICHOLS: Absolutely, yes it is.
...
NICHOLS: And what we fear is that we don`t know who these men were. They were -- they were basically in tactical military gear, Kevlar vests, carrying automatic weapons, and we didn`t apprehend and detain them. It`s unbelievable.

And we let them go back across in Mexico. We have no idea what they were doing here. We don`t know if they were testing the resolve of the National Guard. We don`t know if they were carrying drugs across the border or smuggling human beings. We have no idea.

BECK: OK. The No. 1 question I get from everybody who watches and listens to my radio show is this. Why are people in Washington not doing anything? You`ve been dealing this for a while. Why don`t the leaders in Washington solve this? It ain`t that hard.

NICHOLS: I think political correctness has gone too far.
...
okay, what's the point EXACTLY??

Our government better get off their tushees and start doing something helpful or stop the mental games of letting *illegal* drugs, materials, etc., sift thru our borders. Either clamp down 100% against the drugs and gangs (gang violence), or make it LEGAL. Stop having it BOTH ways!!

People, especially living along those border areas, are frustrated from getting furiously angry/mad. Insurance companies are also powerless in getting back stolen vehicles and property items, because the stolen items are most likely being taken South of the Border! (That's what a certain Insurance company said.) Insurance companies have advised USA citizens to forget about ever trying to get their stolen property back, too. We had a friend who's brand new truck was stolen and most likely went wayyyyyy south - out of sight and out of legal USA jurisdiction reach... Our friend was advised - It's gonzo, and not worth the effort to pursue and prosecute the culprits, who stole the property to begin with. :(

...The current "show of force," but "keep our military guys powerless" is sending out confusing, mixed messages to our kids and various USA Law Enforcement personnel, and they want answers - sooner, NOT later. Either let the teens, young adults, and everyone else who wants to -- all run amuck, and wild in the streets like they want, or STOP it -- NOW!! :mad:

Since the new admin got into office and claims they want to make changes - try starting with that. Otherwise, the obvious message is saying--

1) that someone obviously wants the dangerous drugs and gang cartels, etc., to flow as freely as they want in and around the USA. This is an immediate threat to all USA citizens.

2) It's sending our country down the drain that much faster, and giving trigger happy extremists who want the people of the USA dead by saying in not so many words - giving Iran and North Korea an excuse to send those nasty, destructive nukes onto our soil. :(

[Alisa]

...bump, especially for the above post... :)


Originally posted by Mriana:
There is nothing factual to base any of this on given all the other mythological ideas that came along as marks of this or that. My grandfather at one time he was alive stated that these bar codes that are scanned so we can buy things, have on credit/debit cards, etc was (ominous voice again) "the Mark of the Beast". Everyone uses these bar codes even if they don't have a credit/debit card in one form or the other. We have for decades now and we are still here.
According to the actual prophecies, the system that has been theorized that will be used - will begin as something ordinary and probably on a voluntary basis (as most things made more permanent later on usually are). It will slowly be introduced into the world, almost in a natural way that could be deemed later as seductive, until the day that a certain world leader orders "EVERY person" must have that "mark" upon them in order to buy or sell *anything*. Anyone refusing the mark will not be able to buy or sell.

(still all in debate/theory form) It hasn't yet been decided what that potential branding mark actually is. Perhaps it is a form of cashless payments via an ultra-violet light bar-code permanently tatooed to a person's skin somehow, and processed sort of like debits and credit cards. Maybe it is a bio-chip that gets inserted under the skin, sort of similar to the V-chip now being manufactured... It will contain all necessary data about the person it is inserted into, most likely their health and financial records, and a gps tracking device - also convenient for any Administrative *watch* system, etc.

It's the hackers the technical geniuses working on a universal system haven't figured out yet on how to prevent any Identity thefts from happening. (anyone ever watch Tv's BBC "Tripods" sci-fi series?? the head-thing attached to the brain is very similar to this "mark of the beast" buying/selling, etc., system.)

People are already getting their pets "micro-chipped" for GPS tracking... and right now, there seems to be a logical reason for doing it (finding lost pets, etc.). And some people are also now beginning to have their children micro-chipped for GPS tracking (especially newborns). Cell phones just aren't enough any more...! Even Prisoners in upstate NY prisons are apparently bar-coded (*supposedly* on their forehead) when entering the prison facility, and gps'd with ankle-braclets while out on parole or whatever.

One thing the prophecy definitely does say is that the "mark of the beast" will be branded upon a person's actual body (right hand or forehead... someone may have forgotten about amputees and left-handed folks in that statement, unless it's a generalized generic sort of comment).

Originally posted by Mriana:
As for your last article, it has nothing to do with god (or gods) or even the second coming. It's people doing it.not sure which *last* article that was about... ickky brain worms or bizarre genetic experiments... or something else.
Anywho, if this is referring to the book of Revelation in general, the book is supposed to be a historical record of what mankind will be doing just prior to the "visible" appearance of Israel's true Messiah, that is before the actual 1,000 years of true peace on earth begins. There will be much pain and suffering before that day comes, and even a lie of deception (related to the "beast", and it is the deception) that will blind many people who believe in it.

Originally posted by Dot:
Alisa
Why do you think you are being hounded?
sorry, consider it was a bad week in real life, away from here. :(
Hounded from people who I thought cared (the ones I see a few days every week), and was told they didn't think I cared enough! and then later, one of them totally went verbally ballistic for something she thought she was doing wrong, but really wasn't wrong on her end at all. She only wanted to hear what *she* wanted to hear, and not what I thought could be the problem (that maybe she wasn't properly informed...). It worked out that she wasn't in trouble afterall. The source that started the problem was the *problem*. Still, she never did apologize for screaming at the top of her lungs at me, while I was trying to calm her down. Her reactions were a good way to get an ulcer, BTW... ;)

anyway, when I finally came in here and found I had to repeat what I thought was easy to understand the first time, it just aggravated the other situations that much more. In those situations, I wasn't aware that more seemed to be expected out of me than I was actually giving. In a weird way, there seemed to be a parallel between there and here... *sigh* :(

[Kestra]

Originally posted by Alisa
It will contain all necessary data about the person it is inserted into, most likely their health and financial records, and a gps tracking device - also convenient for any Administrative *watch* system, etc. the plan is to insert this into all newborns.

And some people are also now beginning to have their children micro-chipped for GPS tracking (especially newborns). yes, under the guise of ‘protecting’ ones’ children.

In a weird way, there seemed to be a parallel between there and here... *sigh* :( i always knew this was a parallel world. where's my agonizer? :spy:

[Alisa]

moved to here from the
"Global warming already killing species, analysis says"
Originally posted by Kestra (http://bbs.roddenberry.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=57986#post57986)

well, as if we didn't have enough to worry about, now there's this: Orbiting Junk, Once a Nuisance, Is Now a Threat
maybe this is what the bible is referring to when it mentions 'wormwood' and 'fire raining down from the sky'. and it's not gods doing, it's mans' doing.
"Wormwood" in one translation is "bitter"...
Russia's Chernobyl nuclear site apparently translates (in Ukrainian) as "Mugwort" - which is a close relative of wormwood (Artemisia absinthium).
(see wikipedia definitions - "Chernobyl and the Bible" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_in_the_popular_consciousness) here)

...hmmmm, Russian technology sold to the highest bidder!...?? :eek2:
... let's see which countries are on that list of trading weapons secrets - Iran, Syria...??
Of course, the verses in the Bible's "Revelation 8:11" also state that's when 1/3 of the earth's rivers (globally or regionally?) turned bitter... hasn't yet happened. *Close*, but not quite yet. I think we're inching towards the quarter way mark just by natural pollution (I think it's currently surpassed the 1/8th mark by now). ;)

(on the other major countries vying for #1 power list, trading tech from other sources - what category do China's weapons tech fall into, or is Chinese tech just "trade agreements for whatever the reason" info - during the past 30 or so years, and including the big to-do one about high tech secrets that were either given away or (declared in the news as) *stolen* during the 1990's
- from within the USA?) :(

[Mriana]

I see nothing wrong with micro-chipping one's pet. They can't talk for themselves and never will be able to talk for themselves. You can't ask a 10 y.o. cat, "Where do you live?" and expect to get an understandable answer. Collars can be lost and with that all their info will be lost. With a micro-chip, if the pet is found, the chip can talk for them and you can get your beloved furry family member home safely again.

No, I haven't done it. All my girls have are they rabies tags with their vet on them. So, they are not so safe if they were to wander outside and get lost.

Babies? No, I would not have them micro-chipped, they will eventually learn how to talk, but then again, I have never lost either of my sons. However, I do not pass judgement on parents that do and I do not see it being part of any second coming.

A small group of Christians are only ones who predicts such a thing, even though that book was written for the time in which it was written. Episcopal priests/bishops, non-evangelical Luthern ministers and a few other well educated Biblical scholars will tell you this. Few seminaries teach this unless they are the Evangelical/Fundamenalist seminaries.

If the few Christians who teach and believe this, why don't other groups, right down to Hinduism, Judaism, Buddhism, and alike teach this? And don't say, "Because Christianity is the one true religion." It's not necessarily "the one true religion" and it's not a logical/rational answer, for as Kes says, "all paths lead to the centre". Also, if the book of Revelations was not written for the people of the time and a second coming were true, then all Christian sects would be teaching it, not just the evangelical/fundies. It's just not rational, IMHO, esp in light of well educated scholarly teachings and one of the good ones is Karen Armstrong, IMO. I could probably list others too if I sat and thought about it, but you could give her a listen on Freethought Radio- check the time schedule for when she airs for it varies. No, Freethought radio is not just for Atheists and Agnostics, even though a lot of their programs are geared for that group, but it also has religious scholars like Karen Armstrong, Morman Apostates, the Jefferson Hour, Good Reason, and many more programs that have nothing to do with being non-religious or not. The only requirement is to be open to thinking for yourself and standing on your own two feet regardless of belief or not.

[Dot]

hmmm I actually would appreciate the microchipping of children, but the information only available to parents or caregivers.

It would most certainly aid in the return of 2,300 children that are reported missing in the United States every day.

Most religions *marked* their followers so that they could be recognized or noticed..if not on their person by tattoo or coloring then a object or by a series of symbols that they passed verbally.

[Mriana]

Humm... Let's see... Where is my evolved fish?

[Alisa]

I erroneously had this posted in the "behaviors" topic -- Oooops!!
Originally posted by Alisa:
(still all in debate/theory form) It hasn't yet been decided what that potential branding mark actually is. Perhaps it is a form of cashless payments via an ultra-violet light bar-code permanently tatooed to a person's skin somehow, and processed sort of like debits and credit cards. Maybe it is a bio-chip that gets inserted under the skin, sort of similar to the V-chip now being manufactured... It will contain all necessary data about the person it is inserted into, most likely their health and financial records, and a gps tracking device - also convenient for any Administrative *watch* system, etc.

It's the hackers the technical geniuses working on a universal system haven't figured out yet on how to prevent any Identity thefts from happening. (anyone ever watch Tv's BBC "Tripods" sci-fi series?? the head-thing attached to the brain is very similar to this "mark of the beast" buying/selling, etc., system.)

People are already getting their pets "micro-chipped" for GPS tracking... and right now, there seems to be a logical reason for doing it (finding lost pets, etc.). And some people are also now beginning to have their children micro-chipped for GPS tracking (especially newborns). Cell phones just aren't enough any more...!

Originally posted by Kestra:
the plan is to insert this into all newborns.
...under the guise of ‘protecting’ ones’ children.

these next articles are reinforcing / confirming Kestra's comment about newborns being micro-chipped. ;)
{{date verified at the -- illuminati (http://www.illuminati-news.com/2007/0110a.htm) web site}}

"Doctor alleges plans underway to "Microchip" Newborns in U.S. and Europe" (http://www.agoracosmopolitan.com/home/Frontpage/2007/01/08/01290.html)
Compiled by Lucien Desjardins, The Canadian, Jan 09, 2007
Copyright © 2007 The Canadian. All rights reserved.

Regarding plans to microchip newborns, Dr. Kilde said the U.S. has been moving in this direction "in secrecy."
...
Are you prepared to live in a world in which every newborn baby is micro-chipped? And finally are you ready to have your every move tracked, recorded and placed in Big Brother's data bank? According to the Finnish article, distributed to doctors and medical students, time is running out for changing the direction of military medicine and mind control technology, ensuring the future of human freedom.
...
"Implanted human beings can be followed anywhere. Their brain functions can be remotely monitored by supercomputers and even altered through the changing of frequencies," wrote Dr. Kilde. "Guinea pigs in secret experiments have included prisoners, soldiers, mental patients,handicapped children, deaf and blind people, homosexuals, single women, the elderly, school children, and any group of people considered "marginal" by the elite experimenters.
...
wow! I'm surprised that the notorious, super-secret *illuminati* would actually let people read anything on their web site.
anyway... part of that article sounds like the way the Cybermen in "DOCTOR WHo" (BBC, TV series) began...! :p
another detail about all this micro-chipping is that it has been tested in existence since the 1980's, Sweden was advertising about it during the voluntary, experimental stages.

more articles... these should really be kept together.
posted on the RaidersNewsNetwork web site...
"Beta Testing Your Human Bar Code" (http://www.raidersnewsnetwork.com/full.php?news=2536)

Added: Feb 4th, 2007 10:38 AM
Copyright © 2000-2006 The News Today Online

Human Bar Code
...Is there such microchip today?
Yes, it is no longer science fiction...
and yes, it's already here and it's very real. GPS system is being created by some company working on the VeriChip (V-chip ... not to be confused with the TV v-chip for parents blocking certain programs from their kids).


posted on the RaidersNewsNetwork web site...
"Consumers Want Biometrics" (http://www.raidersnewsnetwork.com/full.php?news=2606)
Worried Consumers Want Biometrics

By Sharon Gaudin, InformationWeek
Added: Feb 7th, 2007 7:20 AM
Copyright © 2007 CMP Media LLC, All rights reserved.

...A majority of consumers in the United States and the United Kingdom are so worried about the insecurity of their personal information that they overwhelmingly want companies and their governments to turn to biometrics to protect them.
...
In the United States, 69% of citizens want banks, credit card companies, health care providers, and government agencies to adopt biometric technologies, rather than other security technologies like smart card readers and passwords. In the United Kingdom, the number is even higher, coming in at 92%.
...
The study also shows that nearly 85% of consumers believe U.S. border security is inadequate, and only half think the U.S. government is making security a priority. Fifty-one percent think technology "plays a significant role in ensuring homeland security" and that biometrics is one of the best methods the government could use...."
...


posted on the RaidersNewsNetwork web site...
"Selling The Benefits Of Human Microchipping" (http://www.raidersnewsnetwork.com/full.php?news=2607)

by Sharron Stephens, BellaOnline's Public Health Editor
Added: Feb 7th, 2007 7:22 AM

The Presence of the Medical Microchip
...With the approval of Food and Drug Administration, VeriChip (the medical microchip) has been able to be implanted in over 2200 patients across the world.
...
Advocates for patient privacy feel that the device should only reveal information such as allergies, blood type, etc. Not to mention the presence of hackers is always of great concern.

Nevertheless, the making of the VeriChip has moved technology and civilization one step closer towards the goal of being a paperless society.

Grants will be distributed in the amount of 139 million to assist with the President’s plan for digital medical records, for Americans, to be obtainable within a decade.
...
please click on links in article titles for complete details... :cool:

[Dot]

isn't Illuminati and website an oxymoron?

:huh:

there is a simple reason that bush doesn't want the borders closed, his plan for the super highway..

in their own words "borders interupt comerce"

or in mine..
no borders, more profit..

he has sold this country out to the highest bidders..it's disgusting..
our border patrol is now AFRAID to do their job for fear of being sent to prison..

oh yeah the message was sent and was received LOUD AND CLEAR

[Alisa]

originally posted from the "corrupt" topic... moved here for tracking a different POV. snipped some things for space... ;)

Originally posted by Mriana

I was listening to Freethought Radio and I'm telling you, if you want real news... Anyway, they stated that not only are the right-wing religious groups and ministers (ie Pat Robinson etc) involved in politics, but are also in the oil business. I'm setting here going, "No way!" So, I'm doing some research:

Article #1:

Profits and Prophecy
Hayseed Stevens and Oil in Israel

http://www.csicop.org/si/9909/oil.html

...Oh brother. :rolleyes:
...
God told him to go into the oil business. OK whatever.

OH BROTHER! :rolleyes: Do I smell the worst of the worst of corruption? Talk about a religious brainwashing and making big bucks at the same time. Become a Christian! Not only will your soul be saved, but you'll be rich! Um... it's much easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle...

OH GOOD GOD! I don't believe this. Now that is really CORRUPTION!

Thus the war between the Shrub et al (including his religious advisors) and the Middle East?

OK they have gone and lost their minds, but this explains the Shrub's et al lunacy. :rolleyes: My question is, how do we fight THAT? I told you, it's a religious war and I'm going to keep digging in this and find the truth of the matter. This is complete and total STUPIDITY! And the devoutely religious have lost their minds!

Do you all see a pattern of land being fought over here?
...
quote -- Originally posted by Alisa:
you're *late*... you're just finding this out NOW?? :D
... expanding those horizons, does wonders to how much is really going on -- on this planet... :p
(I just don't talk about them all...) ;)

anyways, I've been tracking the oil topic (discoveries in Israel) too... but from the Israeli news side. It's probably going to end up becoming a HOT dispute of LAND ownership between the Jews and the Arabs. Christians won't have anything to do with it, other than to spark an interest in finding the oil, and giving some form of hope to Jewish Israel for their own benefit. And somehow, I think the Chinese, Syria, Iran and Russia will also end up getting involved too in an all out war over the oil situation there.

Documentation so far, is showing things leading right into that very direction. It's not corruption when the other nations are involved, but a controversial dispute over who's land it actually is and who's land it will ultimately belong to (Iran wants it for complete Arab control -- read the news headlines.)

I'll continue it under the Earth's Future (Revelation, etc.) topic, because that's the fulfillment of a promise that was made to Jacob's son, Asher. Except one interpretation reads it as OLIVE oil and the others are reading it as BLACK CRUDE OIL (Black Liquid Gold) -- the kind of oil the Beverly Hillbillies discovered in their back yard... :cool:

Say what you want. This has been on-going since the 1980's -- started from a Texas oil rancher who took an interest in looking for oil in Israel under the "foot of Asher" -- which was originally supposed to be near the Dead Sea. However, the only info I could actually find was an oil field much further northwest in Palestinian territory of Israel, near the Lebanon border region.


I think Mriana and I are referring to 2 different oil companies here... I found this via a special announcement ;)
below quote contains link for info to Zion OIL & Gas. More content details are within, as well as other links to the overall history - Biblical *Genesis* inspired.

posted on the Zion Oil & Gas web site...
Prospect Leads in the Asher Permit and Ma'anit-Joseph License (http://www.zionoil.com/project/locationgeology.html) page
Location & Geology
Joseph Project Information

Background

In 1985, during a visit to Israel, John M. Brown (our founder and CEO) became inspired and dedicated to finding oil and gas in Israel, and he started the process that led to the Joseph Project. During the next fourteen years he made several trips each year to Israel, hired oil and gas consultants in Israel and Texas, met with Israeli government officials, made direct investments with local exploration companies, and assisted Israeli exploration companies in raising money for oil and gas exploration in Israel.
...
* In accordance with the Asher Permit work program, on May 2, 2006, we submitted a summary geological report and prospect presentation (the “Asher Report”) reflecting the exploration work under the Asher Permit during the first 9 months of the Permit, and including the preliminary presentation of a drilling prospect....
this should be interesting to track, especially if the surrounding nations get "wind" of it and start focusing on Israel's oil wells for their own ownership, etc. Back in the 1980's, when I first heard about this, I was thinking *that* might be the spark that sets off the international war in the Middle East... well, possibly one of those *minor* details, anyway...

...oh, how would I know during the 1980's that the Middle East would turn into a crisis situation...? the Bible (and maybe deductive reasoning). There's been an on-going war between the Arabs and Jewish Israel ever since Abraham had Ishmael and Isaac. Sarah started it, and ever since - it's been a rough ride for both sides of the split family. "Gut feeling" says this ancient dispute over territorial rights ain't going away, until it's completely resolved one way or the other. And the way the news keeps changing from week to week, it's not certain if Iran's current political moves (against Israel and the USA) are mere "cat and mouse" or something more sinister. Somebody (besides the USA) better take them seriously! :(

[Mriana]

It's not a reply to your oil/Second Coming deal, but I thought it fit very well in your thread. This guy's World View is not mine, but I found it a very interesting perspective concerning the "Second Coming".

What W. B. Yeats’s ‘Second Coming’ Really Says About the Iraq War

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/12/opinion/12mon4.html?th&emc=th

The Brookings Institution, the prominent Washington research organization, just released a report on the Iraq war entitled “Things Fall Apart.” When Representative Jim McDermott, Democrat of Washington, took to the House floor last year to demand that President Bush present a plan for Iraq, he called his speech “The Center Cannot Hold.” Blogs are full of the observation that “the blood-dimmed tide is loosed” in Iraq these days.

These phrases all come from William Butler Yeats’s “Second Coming.” Yeats’s bleakly apocalyptic poem has long been irresistible to pundits. What historical era, after all, is not neatly summed up by his lament that “The best lack all conviction, while the worst/Are full of passionate intensity”? But with its somber vision of looming anarchy, and its Middle Eastern backdrop (the terrifying beast Yeats warns of “slouches towards Bethlehem”), “The Second Coming” is fast becoming the official poem of the Iraq war.

The pundits who quote it, though, are picking up on Yeats’s words, but not his world view. As Helen Vendler, the great Harvard poetry scholar, and others have pointed out, “The Second Coming” is really two poems. The first eight lines are filled with the pointed aphorisms that pundits like so much, while the rest of the poem suggests the unpredictability of how history will unfold. This second, less quoted part is the one that speaks most directly to the grim situation in Iraq.

And it was written during WWI. Very interesting that such a work of art can apply to any generation.

Yeats wrote “The Second Coming” in 1919, an especially dismal moment in history. Europeans were shell-shocked from World War I, and deeply cynical. Yeats’s homeland, Ireland, was lurching toward civil war. The old order in Russia had just been toppled by a revolution that Yeats — who had a fondness for aristocracy — feared would spread across the continent and the globe.

Yeats’s perspective on the world’s troubles was not what many people who quote him today might suspect. For one thing, he was not a Christian. He dabbled in theosophy and the occult, and considered Christianity an idea whose time had passed. “The Second Coming” is not, as its title and the Bethlehem reference might suggest, an account of the return of the Messiah. What is being born is nothing resembling Christ.

Now that takes talent to write a poem and it be interpreted in many different ways, except for how you meant it.

The first eight lines of “The Second Coming,” as Ms. Vendler notes, are the philosophical part of the poem. A rational, thinking observer — a pundit, of sorts — is describing the world in definite, if foreboding, terms. “The falcon cannot hear the falconer” paints a vivid image of the natural order coming apart. “Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world” describes an onslaught of destruction almost matter-of-factly.

But after those eight lines, the poem suddenly becomes, as Ms. Vendler notes, “oracular.” Like the Delphic oracle, this Yeats speaks cryptically. “Surely the Second Coming is at hand,” he says — but of course, “surely” here means its opposite: what follows is not certain at all. Yeats goes on to announce “somewhere in sands of the desert/ A shape with lion body and the head of a man” — an indefinite creature in an indefinite place.

The poem reflects, as Harold Bloom, the Yale professor and literary critic, says, Yeats’s belief that a “change in god” was coming, “and that the 2,000-year reign of Christianity was about to end.” But it does not reveal who this god will be. Its last two lines are a question: “And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,/ Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?”

A change in god? He has a very interesting thought. Sort of twisted, but that is the evolution of human thought when it comes to gods and it the past it was usually the god of the conquering country. Now that is a scary thought, but like other people's ideas, his ideas might not be wrong either. It's food for thought. Maybe it's not the return, but rather the end. He's not the first or the last person to say Christianity is dying.

“The Second Coming” is a powerful brief against punditry. The Christian era was about the ability to predict the future: the New Testament clearly foretold the second coming of Christ. In the post-Christian era of which Yeats was writing there was no Bible to map out what the next “coming” would be. The world would have to look toward Bethlehem to see what “rough beast” arrived.

This skepticism about predicting the future has more relevance to the Iraq war than any of the poem’s much-quoted first eight lines. The story of the Iraq war is one of confident predictions that never came to pass: “We will find weapons of mass destruction”; “we will be greeted as liberators”; “the insurgency is in its last throes.”

Sounds like the Shrub.

The confident predictors who have been wrong in the past do not hesitate to keep offering up plans. That is true of President Bush, certainly: he talks about what his “troop surge” will do as if he had never been wrong before. It is also true of the pundits. The co-author of “Things Fall Apart,” the Brookings guide to going forward in Iraq, is Kenneth Pollack, who is — incredibly — best known for his 2002 book “The Threatening Storm: The Case for Invading Iraq.”

It is bizarre to see shards of “The Second Coming” appended to the Brookings report, or to any of the other plans and prognostications about the war in Iraq. Yeats, who grew up feeling “sort of ecstasy at the contemplation of ruin,” did not just welcome whatever new order his rough beast was ushering in. He believed the only way it could plausibly be spoken of was in the form of a question.

Very interesting twist on thoughts concerning the "Second Coming".

[Alisa]

ugh... need sleep!! noreaster on the way starting tomorrow into the rest of the week... ;)
I'll be too tired to read these then. so... in the interim-
Originally posted by Mriana:

Yeats’s ...was not a Christian. He dabbled in theosophy and the occult, and considered Christianity an idea whose time had passed.

A change in god? He has a very interesting thought. Sort of twisted, but that is the evolution of human thought when it comes to gods and it the past it was usually the god of the conquering country. Now that is a scary thought, but like other people's ideas, his ideas might not be wrong either. It's food for thought. Maybe it's not the return, but rather the end. He's not the first or the last person to say Christianity is dying.
first of all, the change in "god" .. will that become dominant from the world of Islam or the *enlightened* New Agers, who have been trying to gain a foothold over the past 30 years to take over the earth's "spirituality" (think Shirley Maclaine & company "Out on a Limb")...? just don't jump up and down too hard on that Limb, folks...!! :D

Also, 2ndly -- Christianity isn't dying -- it's being deliberately *phased* out. All that is recorded indirectly in the Bible somewhere... ;)

In history, there have been several phases of the BIG 3 theologies down thru history. Briefly described, and connecting Europe with the Middle East--
The Jews were often in the front page news from the days of Abraham - up until the Jewish Temple was destroyed circa 70 A.D., A.C.E., and history's main focus shifted more onto "Christianity". In some Christian circles, after the desporia began, that time frame became known as a phasing out of the Jew, and a phasing in of the Christian.

Of course, Roman Catholism took over control of most new Christians, under the Roman leadership of Constantine, who declared himself "Pope" over all Christians. From that point on until recent years, Christianity has dominated the world's mainstream religions, along with Judaism and Islam. (I don't know much about Islam, so I'm not going to go beyond saying that, apart from what the world "news" media prints.)

Now, jumping to the end of the Bible referring to the last days of mankind on earth -- The book of Revelation isn't just about the last great wars of earth's history ... it's closing the chapter on Christianity and re-opening the focus back onto Jewish Israel. This is also known as phasing out the Christian era and phasing back into the mainstream news of historical importance - Jewish Israel. So, Christianity isn't *dying*... it's purposely being phased out of existence. Christians who know the Bible, also KNOW of this phasing in and out situation; and would gladly step aside to see Israel put back into focus.


As for the timing of the actual so-called 2nd Coming, it might not come for another 1,000 or 2,000 years (unlikely, but for the sake of the argument). Therefore, anyone who is expecting it should be living to fulfill the goal of knowledge shall increase... If that translates as succeeding in interplanetary travel, so be it - go forth and find other planets to start settling on. A bizarre twist of fate - how Strange that might actually be if someday it actually fulfilled the scripture verses about the armies of the heavens returned to Earth with Israel's Messiah... Earth's own history will remain intact and continue to focus upon itself, not on who's *disappeared* by exploring the heavens... geeee... another potential twist in prophecy or just a play on words written nearly 2,000 years ago...?

Meteors, comets, satellites, who knows what will be heading on down to earth from the heavens over the years...?

The point is, Christianity is being *phased* off the planet. One way or another, it will again become a minority among earthlings -- that is an implied Biblical promise. What was probably unexpected on the historical scale -- was fundamental / evangelical Christianity's little burst of popularity (sometimes from the wrong reasons, I'd have to add) during these recent several years. So, for all those terrified that Christianity is trying to take over the world -- stop panicking, because it's just a little hiccup in the time-stream. Something else will dominate the planet soon enough (the question is "Which one???", and then Israel will have to deal with living thru *that*. Keep notes on how the news will return back to Israel, somehow... ;)

... that's a very condensed and loose Biblically oriented transition of who's going to be most visible on the future news spectrum... And only *TIME* will reveal which side has been right or wrong about a lot of things. :wgrin:

[Mriana]

Phased out whatever you wish to call it, history repeats itself. So many nations get conquered by another and that country's religion becomes dominent.

My greatest concern is that there is a possibility that a god called Allah, that I, and others in this nation, have no knowledge of, no need of, and want nothing to do with will be imposed upon us and if we do not accept Allah we will be killed. That is not the second coming, but history repeating itself. Look at your history book- every conquering nation imposed their religion on others- including Christians. The Native Americans had no need of the Christian god, but yet it was imposed upon them and in some cases they were killed for not accepting the Christian god. Islam has done the same to the nations it's conquered. Whole cultures were destroyed in many cases. Southern Spain was forced to become Muslim even and it took years for the Queen Isabella (or whoever) to get that part of Spain back and change it back to Catholic without complete success of course.

Personally, I'd rather die than have a god that I have no knowledge of, no need for, and no belief in imposed upon me. That is what makes the U.S. so great. Constitutionally we are free to worship any god we want or not worship any god, but if Islam extremist had their way, we'd all be forced to worship Allah- they've made a law in one country that if you don't face the West and pray to Allah you'll be killed. Oh joy! :rolleyes: What if the person was Jewish? They're dead, but that's probably OK because they didn't want anything to do with Allah and death was preferable to them. Would be for me at least.

However, it is not their god that kills people, it is PEOPLE who kill people for not accepting the god imposed upon them. Which means, in this poem, the first coming was when the Christians came here and imposed Christianity on the Natives. The second would be IF Islamics came here and imposed Islam on everyone. Awfully big country to try and imposed their invisible friend on everyone, but it could happen.

Of course, meanwhile, the Fundamentalist are battling to keep everyone believing in that Darkage "Old man in the sky" in which few people have that view of god anymore nor do they want it because it's not real. However, this same senerio has been played out in history many times over when the Catholics kept trying to make everyone Catholic again and the Protestants didn't want it. It's nothing new and has nothing to do with a second coming of Christ. It's just crazy people imposing their Zeus on others which has been repeated over and over again, for centuries and long before Christ ever walked the Earth.

The Jews in the OT either assimilated or killed people they conquered for not believing in the Jewish god Yahwah. Babylonians, Assyrians, Egyptians, etc did the same thing and this was all before JC was every born.

So, you feel Christianity is being phased out and I see it as dying. Either way, I rather have a choice as to what I believe than have other HUMANS imposed their god on me. Goes back to "liberty or death", I'd rather die than be forced to believe in a god I don't believe in, could care less about, and could do without. If you have lived all your life without Allah, you know you could go on for the rest of your life without it just fine too and would not want people imposing it on you.

It's not the god that scares me. It's the [B]human beings that scare me when they do the things they say they do in the name of their god. It has nothing to do with a god, but rather PEOPLE who do crazy things. So, if there is a second anything, it will be some strange unknown religion imposed upon us by other HUMANS which degrades the human even more and all infidels will be killed. It has nothing to do with the return of JC which has never happened each time they predicted it and never will. It will just be more PEOPLE crap fighting over their own version of a reincarnated Zeus.

[Dot]

that's one of the misconceptions harbored by a a large number of people.

ISLAM is not our enemy, it is radical fundamentalist who HATE america and it's politicans and our govt's purpose of wolrd domination. They just happen to call themselves Moslems.

It is the same as the radical right, who preach bigotry and intolerance, while building $20 million dollar temples to their egos, start wars to control oil, run mines of slaves in countries that export Blood Diamonds, while actively working to see an entire population destroyed to bring about the apocolypse, calling themselves christians.

The REASON Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world right now, is because, much like the ORIGINAL message of Jesus, before it was polluted by the Romans, it offers solace and a chance at liberty and justice to the masses of hopeless and deprived.

In moderate Islamic cultures all religions are tolerated, BUT proseltyzing of Moslems is forbidden.

So you can go there and go into a church or synagogue and practice your faith or hold meetings, you just can't go door to door or hold secret meetings to attempt to CONVERT Moslems from theirs.

One of the OLDEST surviving non-moslem religions identifying with John the Baptist is in Iraq and Iran the Mandean faith..
which the Roman church tried to destroy long with the gnostics.

I suggest going to half price books or your library and actually getting a copy of the Qur`an to read and study.

It is quite beautiful, of course some of the activites like the bible are based on ancient times. I would suggest one written/translated by Abdullah Yousif Ali. His footnotes are quite timely and his knowlwdge of Arabic history very telling.

some people think they can just judge Islam from what they see on the news, hear from their friends or politicans but they are quite moronic in my opinion. If you consider Islam your enemy then it behovves you to actually KNOW something about them.

If you do not equate Islam with a santanic cult then it behooves you to actually KNOW something other then rumour.

IF america goes moslem it is not because we were forced to under the threat of a knife or bomb,, it'll be because the christian faith just let too many people down and the rest were too illiterate to do any education.

[Mriana]

I used the words "Islamic extremist" once, so I don't consider all of Islam the enemy, I just don't want it imposed upon me any more than I want any other religion imposed upon me. Nor do I believe it is satanic and to be honest, I don't know what satanic is. Plus, if you noticed, I also picked on the extremists of Christianity and Judaism too. Although extremist Jews are almost unheard of now days, if ever.

It is not "free-will" to be forced to believe anything out of fear, threat, or what have you nor does anyone else for that matter. It is far better when a person makes their own choice to believe whatever it is they chose to believe. The real battle will be between the extremist of any given religion, but they could take us all down with them if it goes too far.

As I said, it's not the god I fear, but people imposing their beliefs on me (or anyone else for that matter) via fear or threat. I agree, Islam is not the enemy nor is Christianity or Judism, but rather the extremists of any religion. To threaten someone with Hellfire and damnation or even death because they refuse to believe in god (any god by any name), is degrading and demeaning of the person. A person should have a free choice in what religion or philosophy they practice without being hammered over the head to believe. It's only uplifting to the individual if they choose to practice any given philosophy or religion.

[Dot]

perhaps it would help if you referenced Islamic Extremist..in the opening sentence.?

what offends me is refering to any *terrorist* by a religious handle it is simply not fair to equte a religion of 1 3/4 billion people as terrorist even as it's not fair to associate the 2 billion christians worldwide by the standards of the American Religious right.

any religion forced at the point of a gun or blade is doomed to the same fate as any tyrant.

[Kestra]

we are our own worst enemy.

[Mriana]

I guess I didn't explain it very well, but if you remember your history of the Inquisitions and alike, it was the threat of death (by the hand of humans) that scared people into believing or at least paying Christianity lipservice, which is not true belief IMO.

If a leader of a country makes a law that everyone must face the west and pray to Allah or face death (which one country did recently), then is that any better than the Pope saying you must keep the teachings of the Catholic chruch or be charged with heresy and face execution (which happened during the Darkages or there abouts)? People end up saying anything that will appeal to the leader/Pope to keep from dying, whether they believe it or not.

[Alisa]

Originally posted by Mriana
Phased out whatever you wish to call it, history repeats itself. So many nations get conquered by another and that country's religion becomes dominent.
...
The Jews in the OT either assimilated or killed people they conquered for not believing in the Jewish god Yahwah. Babylonians, Assyrians, Egyptians, etc did the same thing and this was all before JC was every born.

So, you feel Christianity is being phased out and I see it as dying....
The point of what I have referenced is that Israel is being phased back into the mainstream NEWS. Israel is a NATION, not a religion; but it is the Jewish people of Israel whom the extremists want to wipe off the face of this planet (the extremists being those who hate Jewish Israel and its laws of Democracy, or democratic policies/ways).

The Jewish people of Israel are part of Israel, who are also being put out front and center in the NEWS - courtesy of Iran's current president, and his desires to see the Jewish people of Israel dead!

How could something be written nearly 2,000 years ago, be mentioned just 30-40 years ago (1970's) that all this would happen - sometime in the yet future, because of *what* was written (in the Bible) nearly 2,000 years ago and more? That's a question I've been asking and asking, and it keeps ending up being evaded as a non-issue.

BTW, it was about 30 years ago I heard Hal Lindsay coining the term "phasing out of the Christians and phasing in of the Jews". During that time, Israel was NOT prominent in the news, other than the usual bombing and disruptions on their land or people; or at least not as much as it has been {highly dominant with last year's situation with Lebanon, and the kidnapping of a Jewish soldier, who's life status, etc. is still unknown} within the last year.

When else in history is it true in the extreme degree it is now -- that the Christians would fade away from popularity, and Jewish Israel would again become dominant, headline news?

You can't use WWII and the holocaust of the millions who perished then, because Hitler's Catholic background, cancels out the spiritual aspects of both Christian and Jewish religions. The Pope still ruled the Catholic Church in those days... but nowadays, the Catholic Church itself is crumbling from disgrace at the top levels. The rest of Christianity is on the decline, either by force or disgrace, as well. The *Crusades* time era don't count either, because "Israel" as a nation, did NOT exist. Israel's re-birthing didn't actually start until around 1918 (A.D. / A.C.E.).

[Mriana]

Originally posted by Alisa
How could something be written nearly 2,000 years ago, be mentioned just 30-40 years ago (1970's) that all this would happen - sometime in the yet future, because of *what* was written (in the Bible) nearly 2,000 years ago and more?

I'm not sure what you are talking about as being mentioned, the NT wasn't written nearly 2000 years ago. The first gospel, not the first one in the Bible but rather Mark, was written around 45 years AFTER Jesus's death. Whatever the case, decades went by before any of the gospels were written. We aren't even certain those we creditted with writing them actually wrote them. Paul's works were written BEFORE Mark and any of the other Gospels, but some 30 years after JC's death. Mark based his story on some of the things Paul said, then the other gospel writers expanded on Mark's story all of which were set to the Jewish litergical calendar.

[Alisa]

Originally posted by Mriana
I'm not sure what you are talking about as being mentioned, the NT wasn't written nearly 2000 years ago. The first gospel, not the first one in the Bible but rather Mark, was written around 45 years AFTER Jesus's death.
nearly 2,000 years ago loosely translates as NEAR that approximate time frame -- when you're past the 1,500 year mark, 2 Centuries is close enough to *near* in description, by my estimated calculations. (try to think in terms of those *eternal* vampires, who lose track of time over the ages... what's a few decades or a century here or there to them? technicality!! IMHO, that's being slightly overly picky for the actual point that is trying to be emphasized about this.) :p

my point is it doesn't matter how many years passed after Jesus walked on this earth -- 150 or 300 years could have passed BEFORE the last book of the Bible was written and passed on somehow - word of mouth, whatever - and it doesNOT matter *who* wrote each book within the Bible - cover to cover. It's still WELL over 1500 years since the books were written and declared as "holy" by the counsel of 70 (Septuagint version). That translates as a lot of time existing between the scattering of Jewish Israel, birthing of Christianity, and the return of Israel as a NATION back into the very land from once it began.

My question is how would someone like Hal Lindsay and Tim La Haye, who had NO say or influence over history back in the 1970's *KNOW* via biblical interpretation that Israel would someday (like 30 years into their own future) go back into the FRONT headlines of the news, and become a "cup of trembling" or an obstacle for the world's Middle East controversy -- with extreme pressure made by certain persons in other nations, such as Iran, suddenly declaring Jewish Israel needs to be "wiped off the map-Permanently" Period? (and anyone can put whatever slant they choose about what that *obstacle* might represent -- be it about Israel's *Jewish* populations in existence, or oil in surrounding nations or now even discovered in Israel - under the "foot of Asher" fields, or what.) That's the *age-old* question, and one that keeps getting evaded, because there is NO logical answer. Either these people are psychic beyond reason with precision accuracy, or they obtained their info from the Bible, which told them this is what would happen sometime in their near or distant future. They believed it was more nearer than distant. They just didn't factor in the whole September 11, 2001 events, because the "Bible" details were too vague on how things would actually shape into what they are on today headlines news spectrum.

... and I'm referring to Christian experts on "Bible event" issues, not secular predictions from people like Jean Dixon, other astrologists, as well as Nostradamus. Anyone can predict. But not all of them are in the "born-again" variety camp (and that's where I get the word "camp" from when it's related to Christians - translates loosely as "group").

I do have an article I've been holding back on about Israel's thoughts on that issue and the world scene. But I'm interested in hearing an answer from other sources first to answer that question, before I share the Israeli side to it. ;)


now, here's more on the human "chip" tracking issue...
Please click on link in article titles for complete details...
posted on the RaidersNewsNetwork web site...
"Implantable Microchips Spark Big Brother Concerns" (http://www.raidersnewsnetwork.com/full.php?news=2803)

KOTV
Added: Feb 13th, 2007 8:21 AM
© 2007 KOTV, A Griffin Communications, LLC Subsidiary

...
"I'll be honest with you, my first thought was that this is some kind of conspiracy theory, and I was not interested in it," he said.

But Crain says the more he learned about it, the more interested he became, and the more concerned. The microchip is tiny, about the size of a grain of rice, it's inserted under the skin and contains a 16-digit number that can be read with a scanner. Implantable microchips started as a way to identify lost animals. Its most common use in people is to connect to a person's medical information when they're hurt or unconscious. The chips have also been used to keep track of Alzheimer's patients or newborn infants. But what caught Crain's eye is on the website for Verichip, the company that makes the chips, where it markets the chip as a tool for company security.
...
So far, Crain says there's been no incidence in the U.S. where a company has required its workers to have a chip implanted. But he says there have been examples in other countries, and Crain doesn't think it's too far-fetched to see where a company here might pressure its workers to "chip in."

"I think we've got some really good technology here,” he said. “Unfortunately it runs the risk that it could become a big brother approach."

Senator Crain says if people want to volunteer for this kind of thing, more power to them.
...


New ID tracking system in NJ schools - watch out, something similar to the Verichip might be the next step!
posted on the RaidersNewsNetwork web site...
"Students Told: No Personal Barcode? No Entrance" (http://www.raidersnewsnetwork.com/full.php?news=2801)

BY ROSE Y. COLÓN
Added: Feb 13th, 2007 8:15 AM
©2007 New Jersey On-Line LLC. All Rights Reserved.

No ID card? No entrance
High school to go hi tech

TRENTON -- By the end of the month, any student wishing to enter Trenton Central High School must carry an identification card with a special bar code.

With just one swipe of the card, the student's picture and class schedule will appear on a computer screen. If the picture matches the student, he or she may gain access into the building.

This new identification system is part of an effort led by Superintendent Rodney Lofton to control access into schools and strengthen security districtwide.
...
In Trenton, the six schools were chosen based on the density of their student populations and not because of a reputation for violence, according to Howard White, the district's head of security.

But Trenton Central High School is on the state list of "persistently dangerous" schools, a label it previously shared with Dunn Middle School.

A school must follow the same violent pattern for three consecutive years in order to be considered most dangerous.
...
Fights in corridors had been a persistent problem in the district but school officials will be able to monitor hallways better with CAASS, according to White.

"The purpose of the system is to track attendance. We are hoping it helps prevent or reduce violence because we will be able to control hall walkers who are cutting class," he said in an interview this week.

White warned that students will not be able to swap cards. "You can't give your card to someone and think you can get away with it because the cards are going to have your face," he said.

If a card is lost, he said, it will be deactivated. Each school will choose its own design for the cards and students who lose them will receive replacements, he said.

The system will also print passes for visitors and students who arrive late to school, White said.
...
Similar stations and equipment will be installed at other schools, he said.
...

[Alisa]

by the way... ;)
Originally posted by Dot
IF america goes moslem it is not because we were forced to under the threat of a knife or bomb,, it'll be because the christian faith just let too many people down and the rest were too illiterate to do any education.
and *that* is exactly right. ;)
thank you, Dot. :wgrin:

[Mriana]

Originally posted by Alisa
My question is how would someone like Hal Lindsay and Tim La Haye, who had NO say or influence over history back in the 1970's *KNOW* via biblical interpretation that Israel would someday (like 30 years into their own future) go back into the FRONT headlines of the news, and become a "cup of trembling" or an obstacle for the world's Middle East controversy -- with extreme pressure made by certain persons in other nations, such as Iran, suddenly declaring Jewish Israel needs to be "wiped off the map-Permanently" Period?

To scare people and get their money. They haven't predicted anything because Isreal has been having problems since it was first established in the 70s. They are just preying on people so that they can get rich quick. Goes right back to my corruption post in the corruption thread.

"I condemn false prophets, I condemn the effort to take away the power of rational decision, to drain people of their free will--and a hell of a lot of money in the bargain. Religions vary in their degree of idiocy, but I reject them all. For most people, religion is nothing more than a substitute for a malfunctioning brain."

-Gene Roddenberry, Creator of Star Trek (1921-1991).

So put your money back in your pocket, think for yourself, and don't fall for con artists. No insult intended, Alisa, but Gene had some very good words of wisdom there. :)

[Dot]

hah hah you are quite welcome Alisa ;)


How could something be written nearly 2,000 years ago, be mentioned just 30-40 years ago (1970's) that all this would happen - sometime in the yet future, because of *what* was written (in the Bible) nearly 2,000 years ago and more? That's a question I've been asking and asking, and it keeps ending up being evaded as a non-issue.

I don't see it as a non issue..the originals of the Israeli story destruction were written in the OT, because the jews were a scattered race..and the stories were used to pull them together and give them hope.
from moses story until revelations
"We encounter that pride of Israel and contempt for all other nations, which has appeared through-out their history"

the NT copied many OT stories and re-worked them to be relevant. including revelations which was take from Issaih (sp?)
it was usually god doing the destroying, which it did willy-nilly at every slight infraction, then it sent angels then opposing armies..
but always they were promised *the promised land* and gods benevolence..*if only they'd obey* lol
Israel again resumed the march towards the Land of Promise. They had almost reached its boundary, when the event happened which not only formed the turning-point in the history of that generation, but which, more than any other, was typical of the future of Israel.

When the world didn't end, their god didn't come, they just re-invented the story with a different ending., this time with the christians re-writing the story.
It's just nothing new or *miraculous* it happens every year.

[Kestra]

Originally posted by Alisa
The Jewish people of Israel are part of Israel, who are also being put out front and center in the NEWS - courtesy of Iran's current president, and his desires to see the Jewish people of Israel dead! i guess you missed the 2003 memo along with Condi:
"an Iranian proposal for comprehensive talks with the United States had been reviewed and approved by Iran's supreme religious leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei; then-President Mohammad Khatami; and then-Foreign Minister Kamal Kharrazi." The memo, provided by an unnamed source, included a "roadmap" that proposed "putting on the table" long-time demands of the Bush administration, including "such issues as an end to Iran's support for anti-Israeli militants, action against terrorist groups on Iranian soil and acceptance of Israel's right to exist."

My question is how would someone like Hal Lindsay and Tim La Haye, who had NO say or influence over history back in the 1970's *KNOW* via biblical interpretation that Israel would someday (like 30 years into their own future) go back into the FRONT headlines of the news, and become a "cup of trembling" or an obstacle for the world's Middle East controversy -- with extreme pressure made by certain persons in other nations, such as Iran, suddenly declaring Jewish Israel needs to be "wiped off the map-Permanently" Period? . on the contrary Iran is quite willing to accept of Israel's right to exist. Israel became an independent nation in 1948 for the first time in many centuries. not only that, the Middle East has been warring for with its neighbors for centuries. even the bible documents the wars. that’s just how the middle east is. so ‘predicting’ it to become a "cup of trembling" or an obstacle for the world's Middle East controversy one only need look at history. my question is: did Hal give a time table for his ‘prediction’ i think not. i too used to follow his predictions i don’t ever remember him giving a time table.
this reminds me of the TNG epi “Devils Due” where the ppls of the planet had signed a pact with the ‘devil’ Ardra which would come due after 1000 years. so they enjoyed 1000 years of peace and prosperity. and then the imposter showed up to lay claim the planet. there are those amongst us who are doing their best to bring about Armageddon and ‘bring’ back Jesus. now i already know you don’t believe the return of Jesus can be forced neither do i. however, what concerns me is that there are those who do. and that is their agenda.

[Dot]

and now the bible in the orignal Klingon

http://klv.mrklingon.org/

[Mriana]

Originally posted by Kestra
now i already know you don’t believe the return of Jesus can be forced neither do i. however, what concerns me is that there are those who do. and that is their agenda.

It's insane, IMO. All they are going to do is kill themselves and take us with them. I think the Japanese or Chinese have a name for this sort of suicide- Hari Kari or something like that, I think it's called. Only they don't consider their definition sinful suicide/murder and apparently neither do the Christians who believe they can force Jesus (Ardra's) return. :rolleyes:

Side note: Ya know, I think I need to change my saying to, "Everything I need to know about life, I learn from the Roddenberrys." :D No one can say that I don't love and appreciate them.

[Elorie Alton]

Originally posted by Alisa
My question is how would someone like Hal Lindsay and Tim La Haye, who had NO say or influence over history back in the 1970's *KNOW* via biblical interpretation that Israel would someday (like 30 years into their own future) go back into the FRONT headlines of the news, and become a "cup of trembling" or an obstacle for the world's Middle East controversy -- with extreme pressure made by certain persons in other nations, such as Iran, suddenly declaring Jewish Israel needs to be "wiped off the map-Permanently"

This is easy Alisa, they don’t “know.” Hal Lindsay has been writing the same book over and over since the 70’s updating it when time catches up with his errors. Tim La Haye is a writer of “fiction”, he makes it up as he goes, the same way I take Star Trek Voyager episodes and rewrite them so they make sense.

They don’t “know” any more than the rest of these guys that have been predicting the end of time since the time of Jesus.


The founder of the Lutheran Church was the reformer, Martin Luther (1483-1546 A.D.). According to one authority, Luther stated: "For my part, I am sure that the Day of Judgment is just around the corner. It doesn't matter that we don't know the precise day... perhaps someone else can figure it out. But it is certain that time is now at an end." (Reformation Principles and Practice: Essays in Honor of Arthur Geoffrey Dickens, p 169).

The members of the Roman Catholic Church also has a history of failed predictions about the "time of the end." For example, Gregory I who was pope from 590-604 A.D predicted that the end of the world was near in a letter that he wrote to Ethelbert, a European monarch. He advised: "Further, we also wish Your Majesty to know, as we have learned from the words of Almighty God in Holy Scriptures, that the end of the present world is already near and that the unending Kingdom of the Saints is approaching. As this same end of the world is drawing nigh, many unusual things will happen—climatic changes, terrors from heaven... All these things are not to come in our own days, but they will follow upon our times." (Visions of the End—Apocalypticism in the Wake of the Lutheran Reformation, Bernard McGinn, p 64).

Cardinal de Cusa later held that the end of the world would come in the year 1700 A.D.

Arnald of Villanova predicted that the Antichrist would appear in 1378 A.D. (Visions of The End, McGinn, p. 147)

Thomas Brightman who lived from 1562 to 1607 has been called "one of the fathers of Presbyterianism in England." This well educated and esteemed fellow predicted that "between 1650 and 1695 [we] would see the conversion of the many Jews and a revival of their nation in Palestine...the destruction of the Papacy...the marriage of the Lamb and his wife." (A Great Expectation--Eschatological Thought in English Protestantism to 1660 by Bryan W. Ball and E.J. Brill, page 117). This did not happen.

Christopher Love who lived from 1618-1651 was a bright graduate of Oxford and a strong Presbyterian. Love predicted that: (1) Babylon would fall in 1758 (2) God's anger against the wicked would be demonstrated in 1759 and (3) in 1763 there would occur a great earthquake all over the world. (The Logic of Millennial Thought by James West Davidson, page 200).

The Assemblies of God Church has made an indelible impression because of its active evangelical work. Like other popular groups, this community has a rich history of failed predictions. One definitive study of predictions made within this church was published by an Assemblies of God scholar and pastor, Professor Dwight Wilson. The book was entitled Armageddon Now! On the jacket of his book is this caveat: "The author cautions his fellow Premillenarians that they will lose their credibility if they continue to see in each political crisis a sure fulfillment of Biblical prophecy--despite their obvious errors concerning earlier crises."
During World War I, The Weekly Evangel, an official publication of the Assemblies of God, carried this prediction: "We are not yet in the Armageddon struggle proper, but at its commencement, and it may be, if students of prophecy read the signs aright, that Christ will come before the present war closes, and before Armageddon...The war preliminary to Armageddon, it seems, has commenced." (April 10, 1917 edition, page 3). Other editions speculated that the end would come no later than 1934 or 1935 (May 13, 1916 pp 6-9 etc).

Charles Taze Russell, the first president of what is now the Watchtower Society, predicted that Armageddon would break out in 1914. World War I, which broke out in this year, was referred to colloquially as "Armageddon", at least until World War II.

Joseph Franklin Rutherford, the second president of the Watchtower Society, predicted that in 1918, God would begin to destroy churches and millions of its members. He also predicted that in 1920, the world would descend into total chaos, and that in 1925, the Millennium would begin, with Biblical figures such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and David coming back to life.

The Watchtower Society also predicted that the end (Armageddon) could come in 1975.

Russian Mennonite minister Claas Epp, Jr. predicted that Christ would return on 1889-03-08 and when that date passed, 1891.

Pat Robertsons predictions
2002 Detroit and San Francisco become terrorist targets.

2003 August 11: Liberian President Charles Taylor, a "Christian, Baptist president" with links to al-Qaeda, was forced into exile after a civil war. Pat Robertson predicted the nation would be plunged into chaos because of the nation's lack of Christian leadership. In fact, Ellen Johnson-Sirleaf was democratically elected President after a transitional government. Taylor, known as Africa's most renowned warlord, was arrested in Nigeria in March 2006 on charges of crimes against humanity. He is wanted by a UN criminal tribunal in Sierra Leone.

2004 November 2: George W. Bush narrowly wins the US Presidential election. Pat Robertson had predicted in January 2004 that Bush would win in a "blowout".

2006 Pat Robertson claimed that God told him that storms and possibly even a tsunami would hit the American coasts during 2006. He said the prediction, made in May of that year, was partly fulfilled by heavy spring rains and flooding in New England.


The truth is nobody “knows” not even the angels in heaven, we are not supposed to “know.” The only thing coming from all these predictions is the money these “Books” make for their authors.

Elorie

[Dot]

“After Thirteen Heavens of Decreasing Choice, and Nine Hells of Increasing Doom, the *Tree of Life shall blossom* with a fruit never before known in the creation, and that fruit shall be the New Spirit of Men.” Mayan prophecy
Tezcatlipoca, god of death, would remove his mask of jade to reveal himself as Quetzelcoatl, god of peace. 4000BC

The Inca prophecies say that now, in this age, when the eagle of the North and the condor of the South fly together the world will end, The union of the Condor and Eagle, according to the prophecy, should occur in this time. The ensuing time period will be born with a new spirit. This new spirit will unite once again the red nations of North, Central and South americas, parts of the same hemisphere. 3000BC

YU-HUANG-SHANG-TI 2000BC the jade god of the chinese, who made men *from clay*.. waits for the world to end to bring man back to him.

Babylonian end of the world prophecies 3000BC

Hopi prophecies speak of the return of Pahana, their True White Brother, who left them in ancient times, promising to return.
1500BC

Jewish biblical endtime prohecies 725BC

Christian revelation written 93-96 AD

EVERY where there has been a permanent or semi-permanent squatting by mankind they have invented *endtime* prophecies.
WHY? because, what IS obvious is that everything eventually dies, even the planet you live on.

It's nothing new, and it's certainly nothing Christ-ian..
even HE admitted no one knows when it will happen.

To claim that THEY know, or knew it first..is blatently ridiculous, at the worst historical plagerism

But there have always been charismatic con-men, with the gift of gab, who can weave ingredients into the stories to make them alluring to unsuspecting, and uninformed people.
To seduce them into following them willingly, even cheerfully, to their deaths.

They will have more success if they clobber them over the head with obvious *demonic doctrines* associating people , places and events with *EVIL* and they are cunning enough to know that. They mix just enough truth in with lies to sneak the lies past us (them), under our radar.

They understand the curiosity and desperation of the future (both known and afterlife) that humans posses and play to it by spinning elaborate tales that amaze us or make us tremble in fear.

Their ability to engage in special effects would make even the best Hollyweird artists blush. Shock and Awe, oil in israel, gas pills for your car, miricle cures for a price
They play on our fears by soothing us with lying reassurances and rouse the rabble successfully, throughout recorded history, with tales of *evildoers* to be battled.
Focusing on *future promises of god, as the ultimate reward. They play to our pride and or desire for power by telling us we have a promised land of *streets of gold* or eternal life or virgin brides.

Currenty they exploit the masses with reassurances that these are extra-Biblical revelations. Extra Biblical?
Funny how all the *sources* say THEY are the all knowing, source, although they all say sources that come after them are heretical or lies.. :rolleyes:

If you believe Jesus, then why do you believe Paul or the Catholic church, or King James, or Calvin, Luther , Robertson, etc etc?
He either knew what he spoke of...OR was a simple delusional man.. the leaders of his time certainly discredited his sanity.

To jump on the religious right warwagon, to believe *NT prophecy* written long after the death of jesus, is to follow the ravings of genocidal madmen. *hellbent* to insure the suffering of mankind..so IMO to follow them, any of them, is to follow the anti, -christ.. (not the christ, not the message)

Jesus described them (and the future leaders); "As whitewashed tombs" -- allright to look at, but full of rot and uncleanness. They made all appearances of righteousness, saying the right things but stole from the widows and poor (sound familiar?) and escaped the requirements of the law with their legal niceties. More and more, their efforts were & are bent toward finding escape clauses in god's word for themselves.
They sit discussing the law -- and its loopholes -- while the poor and the needy were mistreated around them without their slightest notice.

Behind the thin veneer of the new religious right's version of christianity in the US, are the bloated "preaching" corpses filled with greed, lawlessness, hypocrisy, and pride. Behind the reports of church growth and new conversions is evidence that the new *spirit filled* faith of American Christians makes lttle if any difference in their lives or the lives of the unfortunate around them. Are they humble? tolerant? caring?

While they preach a great regard for "living right," and imposing morality on others through legislation or legalities, little or no attention is given to being pure of heart. Steal it's ok, kill it's ok,
climb over the bodies of the poor and weak or those *not like you* it's ok, after all ,you are the *chosen*

They encourage anger when it proceeds from "inner rage" .
Their churches and services are designed to attract people on the basis of appearances, wide screen mega TV's appeal to the instant *celebrity* of it's followers, Obvious *sins* are either ignored or magically transformed into virtue, stubbornness becomes "rugged individualism," covetousness changes to "wanting good things for your family," and personal obcenities are sent to re-hab and miraculousley cured after 3 weeks of prayer.

Jesus cited Scripture directly and taught without hedging His interpretations based on other men's works.
Modern teachers cite the works of men, and each other.
One person gains power and recommends another, encorage dynastic succession -- then they are accepted without question, and we fall down in awe.

"They sound the trumpet before themselves," Jesus said of those who sought to publicize their spitiuality. (sound familiar?)

The competition for recognition is intense.
How many know or know of a verse dispenser, turn on the 700 Club, or any of the Tel-Evengelist events, & you will see a instant Scripture quote for every occasion.
Today, depending on the branch of Christianity to which one belongs, they show a spiritual *appearance* by toting a dog-eared, well-marked Bible that they wave around, or pray *loudly* in public places. They make constant use of phrases like "praise the Lord" when their self-centered, greedy, intolerant lives would be an embarrassment to Jesus.
But they have millions of *witnesses* to their spirtuality. But in practice, do nothing.

Which politcian or *preacher* would turn down a Presidential banquet for a trip through the food line at a homeless shelter or the streets of Los Angeles, where the hospitals dump the imndigent poor on the street?
Bush still holds the weekly breakfast for the *leaders* who preach to each other and catalogue their responses for the world. Why are writers of Christian apocalyptic fiction, invited to meet with aides in the White House. Do they have any real influence on U.S. foreign policy, especially Middle East policy?
Many Christian fundamentalists feel that concern for the future of our planet is irrelevant, because it has no future.

They are not *original* thinkers..but like the doomed civilzations of old, they hold the power of life or death for everyone on the planet.

[Mriana]

And you have just entered "The Freethought Zone". Well said, Elorie and Dot.

As writers, Elorie and I both know why people write- to hopefully make money, but not necessarily to get rich. Honest writers enjoy writing and wish to entertain their readers. If they make money that's a wonderful kickback to a career in the entertainment field.

C.S. Lewis, like a lot of writers, dreamed about his books and what he would write next. The difference between him and La Haye is that he admits he dreamed about what he was currently writing or had put on the back burner to finish later, instead of drumming up false statements about his fiction. He even stated that some of the conclusions some people came up with about his children's book (The Narnia Chronicles for example) were not his intentions.

La Haye on the other hand says to play on peoples dogmas and to get rich, "Oh God told me what to write in a dream, so therefore it's true and what is to come." in an effort to scam people and to make millions as a false prophet. :rolleyes: As a writer, he is deplorable! :mad: He doesn't know the name of any person who is going to be an "evil" world leader. He's made it all up, just like honest writers make up their stories. His books are just works of fiction, like any other writer, but he tells blatant lies about just to make millions.

Only the gullible fall for the second writer and so he makes millions by stating false prophesy, but those who know fiction well and why people write go for the first writer because he is being more honest.

We all know Jackie Collins writes to entertain and make money. It's obvious. I'm sure she would admit to that too and no one takes her stories seriously, but they buy them and the books become best sellers. Of course, smut is a great money maker.

An honest writer writes to entertain and sometimes includes a message, but not to state false truths just to make money. If his books sell well, he continues down that line without misleading others just to make that all mighty dollar. La Haye works off of people's fears and misleads people just to make that all might dollar and keeps going with his fiction that others eat up as prophesy instead of fiction, never once stating the real truth behind his books and writing career.

Gene also wrote to deliver a message (in script form), but not as prophesy or to make millions off of gullible people and like scientist, writers have their role models/heroes too. Some prefer those like C.S. Lewis and others like me, prefer Gene. Even Gene was honest about why he wrote and it was not to prophisize anything. I have not heard of an honest writer stating La Haye was their hero.

Lewis is gone, but his books have survived him, keeping his memory alive. Gene is not with us anymore, but Star Trek is here to stay along with the memory of him. Even Mark Twain's (Samuel Clemmons) books and sayings keep the memory of him going too. I seriously doubt that when La Haye is gone that his books will last much past that.

[Kestra]

there are verses in the bible that tell of ppl being mislead.

i'm not sure where to put this, so i thot i'd put it here:
Thoughts on the Middle East, History, and Religion (http://www.juancole.com/2007/02/on-mystery-of-muqtada-al-sadrs.html)

[Alisa]

(please click on link in article title for complete details.)

posted on the RaidersNewsNetwork web site...
"Implantable RFID May Be Easy, But That Doesn't Mean It's Ethical" (http://www.raidersnewsnetwork.com/full.php?news=2958)
Added: Feb 18th, 2007 10:13 AM
Copyright © 2007 Penton Media, Inc., All rights reserved.

By Mark David, ED Online ID #14794, February 15, 2007

While researching this issue's Technology Report on RFID, I recalled the first article I'd written about "chipping" humans with RFID tags back in 1996. Implantable RFID chips for pets were making news back then, and it seemed inevitable to consider chips for kids as well.

My article called for a discussion of the ethics of tagging people, and what a firestorm it started! I don't think I've ever received so many letters to the editor. Of course, I fully recognized the Big Brother scenarios facilitated by RFID. Many readers even considered the implantable RFID chip to be the "mark of the beast," as described in the Bible's Book of Revelations.

It's a decade later and three years since the Food and Drug Administration approved VeriChip's implantable chips for human beings...

For now, RFID tags are being used to track kids via wristbands or ID cards, not implants. They're being used, sometimes in conjunction with GPS, at some theme parks, schools, and daycare centers. The tags also help keep track of infants, as a third of all U.S. hospitals and birthing centers now use VeriChip's infant protection systems, according to the manufacturer.

But even RFID badges for kids are controversial. ...

CHIPS AHOY
On the other end of the spectrum, some people think chipping is the height of cyber convenience and fashion. Nightclubs in Spain made headlines last year when they invited patrons to chip themselves for admittance and to pay for drinks.

The New Yorker recently profiled Mikey Sklar, a "post-modern" artist and technician who implanted his hand with an RFID chip to control his computer, door locks, and other home electronics...
seduction into this hype starts out slow... it's already begun. Consider these thoughts--
it's *fashionable* to get "chipped"...
*fashionable* as in getting "body pierced" ... :rolleyes:
"so, what's that weird beauty/body mark on your hand/head...?"
"wow man, that's *cool*!!" :cool:
:rolleyes:

[Kestra]

there's no way in hell i will ever 'voluntarily' get one of those.

[Alisa]

posted on r-com topic-- 1_2_3_4 is it Iran we're heading for?
Originally posted by Kestra (http://bbs.roddenberry.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=59118#post59118)

"Iran Says Sunnis, Using Pakistan as Base, Planned Fatal Bombing" Iran has accused the United States and Britain of provoking the Sunni insurgents.

...so he would have an 'excuse' to invade instead of having to make something up. now, he's trying to goad Iran into a 'first strike'.

Only because Kestra posted the other article above, well, the following 2 articles seem to reinforce similar comments. They also fall into the more conspiratorial region of news.

posted on the RaidersNewsNetwork web site...
"Iran - US Ready To Attack" (http://www.raidersnewsnetwork.com/full.php?news=2953)
Added: Feb 18th, 2007 10:04 AM

By Dan Plesch
Published 19 February 2007
© New Statesman 1913–2007

American preparations for invading Iran are complete, Dan Plesch reveals. Plus Rageh Omaar's insights from Iran and Andrew Stephen on fears George Bush's administration will blunder into war

American military operations for a major conventional war with Iran could be implemented any day. They extend far beyond targeting suspect WMD facilities and will enable President Bush to...
...
With little military effort, the US air force can hit the last-known position of Iranian military units, political leaders and supposed sites of weapons of mass destruction. One can be sure that, if war comes, George Bush will not want to stand accused of using too little force and allowing Iran to fight back.

"Global Strike" means that, without any obvious signal, what was done to Serbia and Lebanon can be done overnight to the whole of Iran. We, and probably the Iranians, would not know about it until after the bombs fell...
...
We should not underestimate the Bush administration's ability to convince itself that an "Iran of the regions" will emerge from a post-rubble Iran.
...
Articles from this issue on Iran
This, Mr President, is how wars start by Andrew Stephen
Sheer incompetence could be the trigger.
...
(please click on link in article titles for complete details, or other links if otherwise recommended) :)

posted on the RaidersNewsNetwork web site...
"NEWSWEEK: Bush Advisers Secretly Want Excuse To Attack Iran, Plot Unfolding" (http://www.raidersnewsnetwork.com/full.php?news=2954)

Added: Feb 18th, 2007 10:06 AM

NEWSWEEK COVER: The Hidden War With Iran
Some Bush Advisers Secretly Want an Excuse to Attack Iran, Says Former Administration Official Hillary Mann

Secret War Between U.S. and Iran Already Unfolding in Iraq, but History of Diplomacy Offers Some Hope, Newsweek Reports
...
NEW YORK, Feb. 11 /PRNewswire/ -- At least one former White House official tells Newsweek that some Bush advisers secretly want an excuse to attack Iran. "They intend to be as provocative as possible and make the Iranians do something [America] would be forced to retaliate for," says Hillary Mann, the administration's former National Security Council director for Iran and Persian Gulf Affairs, in the February 19 cover story, "The Hidden War With Iran" (on newsstands Monday, February 12).
...
(Read entire cover story at www.Newsweek.com)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17086418/site/newsweek/
Source: Newsweek

Personally, that sounds more like propaganda, but from where? The why is obvious - to "egg" Americans on (into supporting the whole enchalata), but if that's the reason, it's having an opposite (repelling and rebelling) effect. I find it a bit on the unbelievable side that someone high up in our USA military command would actually let any of this type of info *leak* out, if the USA wanted to do a major first strike. hello????!!!!!!!!! stealth mode doesn't operate that way. don't TPTB get it?? Of course if any of this *is* true, while the execs who can afford to do so, are hiding out in their miles and miles of underground bunkers, the rest of the world on the surface gets killed in an all out world war. Eventually, the administrators will still have to face each other at some point. :rolleyes:

and "1/3 of life on the land and in the sea get poisoned, destroyed". ..thus, enabling that portion of Biblical prophecy fulfilled.
*sigh*... why worry about Global warming, when these sorts of war games from various directions on the planet are *the* BIGGER and more immediate threat...? :(

[Mriana]

Originally posted by Alisa
and "1/3 of life on the land and in the sea get poisoned, destroyed". ..thus, enabling that portion of Biblical prophecy fulfilled.
*sigh*... why worry about Global warming, when these sorts of war games from various directions on the planet are *the* BIGGER and more immediate threat...? :(

It's only being "fulfilled" due to religious dogma imposed by humans, not devine providence. Dogma is one of many reasons we need to pull out of this war in Iraq and to get the Religious Reich out of government.

[Dot]

what difference would a microchip make, except for instant identification?

every time you use a bank card, or a coupon you are traced.
the gas/electric and water depts all know where you live.

it's already here with you SS number..the chip is just a tiny part of the over all TRACKING.

[Mriana]

That's a very good question, Dot, and it would sure beat wearing a medical necklace, bracelet, or carrying one on your keychain. I have the keychain because I find the necklace so irritating (feels like a dogtag that interfers with the jewelry you want to wear) and the bracelet very obvious. I do wear the necklace when I go on long trips though, besides have the keychain, but if one has a chip, there would be no need for a dogtag that detracts from one's jewelry.

[Alisa]

Originally posted by Dot
what difference would a microchip make, except for instant identification?

every time you use a bank card, or a coupon you are traced.
the gas/electric and water depts all know where you live.

it's already here with you SS number..the chip is just a tiny part of the over all TRACKING.
the only difference would really be a matter of convenience for folks who keep losing things. If the chip is already attached under your skin, it'd take a bad injury to physically lose or damage it.

and for techie people, they'd find ways to improve on the entire chip and incorporate more ways of just doing a magician's wave of the hand or whatever, to get other techie things done in their homefront's multi-tech systems...

the current downside, would be hackers invading your chip version of accounts. Keeping the hackers away from what they already do know about smart cards, etc. They'll just readapt to the new (electronic) technology, which translates, that you're really no safer or better off with a built-in chip, than before with external cash/credit cards... "Stolen ID" might then take on a whole new meaning, depending on what info is actually put forth into each personal ID chip...


On another note... I'd be with Kestra. :eek2:
just prolong putting it off, as long as humanly possible, until we end up like some scenes from "Logan's Run"... :p
(that's one of the reasons why some people have been praying for the *Rapture* -- to keep them from getting trapped into that potential scenario) ;)

and you can't avoid the chip if a mandatory time limit is set forth by saying "when *Hell* freezes over!!" because there'll always be someone out there reminding us that Hell, Michigan is near the Great Lakes *snow* region, and it does *freeze* over now and then... :D

[Dot]

wouldn't mind at all..but that's MPOV
might beat having to carry a 17 pound purse lol

[Kestra]

Originally posted by Alisa
*sigh*... why worry about Global warming, when these sorts of war games from various directions on the planet are *the* BIGGER and more immediate threat...? :( i do find myself in agreement with you there. even so, i prefer to use earth friendly methods.

Originally posted by Dot
every time you use a bank card, or a coupon you are traced.
the gas/electric and water depts all know where you live.

it's already here with you SS number..the chip is just a tiny part of the over all TRACKING. still not convinced.

[Alisa]

PLEASE READ...
hunh??!!!! this is sheer *insanity*...!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad:
(please click on link in article title for complete details!!!) :eek2:
there were many *more* details in the actual article...
posted on RaidersNewsNetwork web site...
"Why John Hagee Wants Immediate Nuclear War In Jesus Name" (http://www.raidersnewsnetwork.com/full.php?news=3512)
© 2007 by The American Prospect, Inc.

By Sarah Posner
Added: Mar 8th, 2007 7:00 AM


Pastor Strangelove
Texan John Hagee may not have his “perfect red heifer” yet. But he does have a huge following, the ear of the White House -- and a theory that an invasion of Iran was foretold in the Book of Esther.


On Purim, the Jewish holiday that celebrates the day Queen Esther saved the Jews from annihilation, Trinity Broadcasting Network’s flagship talk show, Praise the Lord, featured an appearance by Rabbi Daniel Lapin. ...He had been asked to explain the significance of Purim to Christians, and particularly how the Old Testament’s Book of Esther “serves as a roadmap to reality,” which pinpoints where the next world “hot spot” will be.

That soon-to-be-flaming location is where the Book of Esther was set: namely Persia, or in modern parlance, Iran.
...
* * *
He speaks simultaneously to two audiences about Iran’s nuclear capabilities: one that fears a terrorist attack by Iran and another that embraces a biblically mandated apocalypse. To impress the fearful, he mimics Bush’s deceptions about Iraq’s capacity to attack the United States with weapons of mass destruction, Condoleezza Rice’s warnings of mushroom clouds, and Dick Cheney’s dissembling about an alliance between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda. Comparing Ahmadinejad to Hitler, Hagee argues that Iran’s development of nuclear weapons must be stopped to protect America and Israel from a nuclear attack. Preying on legitimate worries about terrorism, and invoking 9-11, he vividly describes a supposed Iranian-led plan to simultaneously explode nuclear suitcase bombs in seven American cities, or to use an electromagnetic pulse device to create “an American Hiroshima.”

When addressing audiences receptive to Scriptural prophecy, however, Hagee welcomes the coming confrontation. He argues that a strike against Iran will cause Arab nations to unite under Russia’s leadership, as outlined in chapters 38 and 39 of the Book of Ezekiel, leading to an “inferno [that] will explode across the Middle East, plunging the world toward Armageddon.” During his appearance on Hinn’s program at the end of last March, for example, the host enthused, “We are living in the last days. These are the most exciting days in church history,” but then went on to add, “We are facing now [the] most dangerous moment for America.”
...
In Hagee’s telling, Israel has no choice but to strike at Iran’s nuclear facilities, with or without America’s help. The strike will provoke Russia -- which wants Persian Gulf oil -- to lead an army of Arab nations against Israel. Then God will wipe out all but one-sixth of the Russian-led army, as the world watches “with shock and awe,” he says, lending either a divine quality to the Bush administration phrase or a Bush-like quality to God’s wrath.
...
But Hagee doesn’t stop there. He adds that Ezekiel predicts fire “‘upon those who live in security in the coastlands.’” From this sentence he concludes that there will be judgment upon all who stood by while the Russian-led force invaded Israel, and issues a stark warning to the United States to intervene: “Could it be that America, who refuses to defend Israel from the Russian invasion, will experience nuclear warfare on our east and west coasts?” He says yes, citing Genesis 12:3, in which God said to Israel: “I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who curses you.”

To fill the power vacuum left by God’s decimation of the Russian army, the Antichrist -- identified by Hagee as the head of the European Union -- will rule “a one-world government, a one-world currency and a one-world religion” for three and a half years. (He adds that “one need only be a casual observer of current events to see that all three of these things are coming into reality.”) The “demonic world leader” will then be confronted by a false prophet, identified by Hagee as China, at Armageddon, the Mount of Megiddo in Israel. As they prepare for the final battle, Jesus will return on a white horse and cast both villains -- and presumably any nonbelievers -- into a “lake of fire burning with brimstone,” thus marking the beginning of his millennial reign.

Now that’s entertainment.
...
ummm, I've got other words for it -- *entertainment* ain't one of them!

[Alisa]

more...
please click on link in article title for complete details.
posted on the WorldNetDaily.com web site...
'Israel will be astonished' (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54605)
© 2007 WorldNetDaily.com

By Aaron Klein
Posted: March 8, 2007, 1:00 a.m. Eastern

New terrorist rockets can travel deeper into Jewish state

TEL AVIV – Palestinians in the Gaza Strip have manufactured improved rockets that can travel deeper into the Jewish state, placing hundreds of thousands more Israelis within firing range, a leader and spokesman of the Islamic Jihad terror group claimed to WND.
...
Until now, Palestinian terrorists in Gaza have mostly been firing Qassam rockets from the northern Gaza Strip. Qassams are improvised steel rockets, about four feet in length, filled with explosives and fuel. They can travel between one and four miles, depending on the sophistication of the particular rocket. Last summer, Islamic Jihad fired a Katyusha rocket at Israel with a large payload and a range of about 12 miles.

The Qassams have been almost daily bombarding Israeli towns, including Sderot, a city of 25,000 some three miles from the Gaza border, and Ashkelon, a port city that is home to important strategic industrial plants and one of Israel's largest electricity generators.

The new claim suggests a dozen more Israeli cities would be within range of the rockets, bringing to about 250,000 the total Israeli population that could live under rocket threat from Gaza.

Abu Muhammad vowed to continue launching rockets deeper into Israel.

"In the coming period, the strategy of Islamic Jihad and other organizations is to turn Ashkelon into the next Sderot and keep bombarding towns regularly until reaching deeper and deeper," said the terrorist.
...
Abu Muhammad claimed Israel would be "very surprised and astonished soon by our rocket capacities. We will not abide by any cease fire."
...
in another article on the same basic subject, the following quotes appear...
click on link in article title for complete details.
posted on ynetnews.com web site...
"Rockets will continue, says Jihad" (http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/CdaArticlePrintPreview/1,2506,L-3373205,00.html)

By Yaakov Lappin

Islamic Jihad says it fired 'C-3 type Qassams,' adds attacks will continue 'until Jerusalem is liberated'
...
In a statement released on its website, the Islamic Jihad's al-Quds Brigades said it fired "C-3 Jerusalem rockets," adding that the attack "came as a natural response to Zionist violations against the Palestinian people and holy places." The statement also said rocket attacks would continue "until the liberation of Jerusalem from the Zionist occupiers."
...
"The real solution lies in resistance," the statement said, adding: "The al-Quds Brigades – the military wing of Islamic Jihad – confirms that the option of resistance and attacking the enemy wherever he is the only way to get rights and dignity… based on the law of the jungle."
...
and so it continues... :(

[Mriana]

I guess I should put my input in, but I'm really tired of the religious war. :rolleyes: And I just made peace with a Catholic, when there was only a perceived battle. Seems Raiders of the Lost Ark are a bit too excited over this. :rolleyes: No insult meant to you, Alisa, concerning your favourite news site- I mean it towards the site, but I'm glad you can see it's insane. :)

Pastor Strangelove
Texan John Hagee may not have his “perfect red heifer” yet. But he does have a huge following, the ear of the White House -- and a theory that an invasion of Iran was foretold in the Book of Esther.

Well, my theory of it being a Crusade, as well as a Jihad, seems to pan out with this insane announcement.

Seated beside Lapin in the ornately gilded Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN) studio was Pastor John Hagee, the author of an incendiary new book purporting to show that the Bible predicts a military confrontation with Iran.

EXCUSE ME! IT'S THE HUMANS WHO ARE DOING IT! No Trinity has anything to with it. And this is why I don't buy any non-secular religious books at Wally World. Next sentence says it's being sold at Wal-mart.

With CUFI, which Hagee has said will cause a “political earthquake,” the televangelist aims to put the political organizing muscle of the conservative evangelical movement behind his grand plan for a biblically prophesied end-time confrontation with Iran, which will lead to the Rapture, Tribulation, and Second Coming of Christ.

OH GOOD GOD! The Religious Reich wants to kill us all. :rolleyes: Now if this doesn't support Harris's theory, I don't know what does!

Although many Christians consider the money-centered word of faith theology to be a form of heresy, the Republican Party has embraced TBN’s audience as a valuable constituency.

And this why we are still stuck in this Crusade. :rolleyes: I was telling Elorie the other night that what is going to happen is not the Second Coming, but a battle in the U.S. between the Religious Reich v. everyone else and the Religious Reich v. the other Religious Extremists and Religious Reich v everyone around the world. They are outnumbered, but they could do a HELL of a lot of damage. It's a shame that we humans can learn what is happening before it happens- or have we?

Through TBN, other religious and conservative media, and the growing mega-churches, Hagee has turned his Bible-thumping not only into a multi-million dollar business, but into a pro-war movement as well.

Like I said, it's the HUMANS who are doing this. Humm... Maybe the Raiders of the Lost Ark aren't so blinded as I thought.

Now that’s entertainment.

No it's not! It's humans turning Earth into Hell, instead of Heaven.

Hagee doesn’t fear a nuclear conflagration, but rather God’s wrath for standing by as Iran executes its supposed plot to destroy Israel. A nuclear confrontation between America and Iran, which he says is foretold in the Book of Jeremiah, will not lead to the end of the world, but rather to God’s renewal of the Garden of Eden. But he also reveals that he is ultimately less concerned with the fate of Israel or the Jews than with a theocratic Christian right agenda. When Jesus returns for his millennial reign, “the righteous are going to rule the nations of the earth … When Jesus Christ comes back, he’s not going to ask the ACLU if it’s alright to pray, he’s not going to ask the churches if they can ordain pedophile bishops and priests, he’s not going to ask if it’s all right to put the Ten Commandments in the statehouses, he’s not going to endorse abortion, he’s going to run the world by the word of God … The world will never end. It’s going to become a Garden of Eden, and Christ is going to rule it.”

Um... Yeah. How about the ACLU, FFRF, AHLC, and other such groups on this now before the Religious Reich kills us all? Probably not possible, but THIS is crazy! Sorry, but this is one of the reasons religion and religious dogma depresses me and sometimes gives me a headache. :( Why don't these people start living life instead of destroying it?

[Alisa]

I guess I should put my input in, but I'm really tired of the religious war. :rolleyes: And I just made peace with a Catholic, when there was only a perceived battle. Seems Raiders of the Lost Ark are a bit too excited over this. :rolleyes: No insult meant to you, Alisa, concerning your favourite news site- I mean it towards the site, but I'm glad you can see it's insane. :)

...Like I said, it's the HUMANS who are doing this. Humm... Maybe the Raiders of the Lost Ark aren't so blinded as I thought.

...It's humans turning Earth into Hell, instead of Heaven.
okay, you almost had me confused with the movie -- "Raiders of the Lost..."
never looked at them *that* way... LOL!! :p
and ooops!! thanks for making note of that - I listed the wrong source site.. just fixed it a few moments ago...

anyway, if you mean this--
posted on RaidersNewsNetwork web site...
or
WorldNetDaily.com

they're not actually my *favorite* sites... I found them by accident. It's just that I've realized that they've both become an excellent source of news material on these sorts of things... Hal Lindsay has excellent news references too.

And actually, I think the raiders one is based on a football team game, or else they just like the name... and might be somehow connected with the weird stuff that is heard on "Coast to Coast" (syndicated) radio programming in the night -- It used to be mostly Art Bell's hours, but George Noory took over most of the rest of the week. And when I say *weird* stuff, I mean *WEIRD*... strange... anything and everything under the sun.

I did figure out that some of the folks on the raiders site are HUGE "Stargate" (movie/Tv) series viewers... or else they're actually part of the SG production crew... Some of the articles referenced on there, I'm sort of hesitant about mentioning from there... because of its "military" - hey look, type stuff. Stuff like mechanical robot Hornets (the size of bumblebees) being used as drone/spy devices, etc.

It might compromise the guys fighting in parts of this world trying to stay ahead of the war against terror... I'm not sure. I think the enemies are deliberately raiding US/Israeli military camps just to steal the knowledge and you can figure out the rest of the story from there... :(


however, I do like the raiders' site interest in Stargate... it's opened so many new visions of understanding... that just maybe Stargate was or *is* closer to the truth of various Bible passages than any of us are aware of... and if that is correct, vonDaniken was closer to the truth, than how Churches and Judaism teach the "mercy seat" in the temple, and the "glory of the Lord" visually... re-read all those passages again, from 4,000 years ago, and explain how primitive people could see what some people today call UFO's or high tech physics (space-flight) technology. ...almost fits with the Goa'uld landing gear on their ships, and power sources/looks of whatever Jack O'Neill flies (fighter jets), etc.
sorry, the names of the actual vessels escape me... (yikes!!)

The pre-Temple (tent) // temple images in the Biblical passages (Exodus // Ezekiel) throw you off a little, but there's deeper meaning between the lines than is revealed .. and it ain't *allegory*... it's specific instructions to the very inches // meter measurements used. Ever wonder why the Jewish temple looks like an oversized BOX? Israel's temple is white. Islam's temple looks very similar in shape, but is black. WHY are they similar (are they the same size?) or opposites?

I think Kes nailed it when she said "Merkabah" -- even if in joking form.
see comment posted by Alisa (http://bbs.roddenberry.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=60927#post60927). ;)

[Mriana]

I was replying to the first of your last two posts. I would have went for the other one, but my head started hurting.

BTW, Raiders News Network has nothing to do with the football team. Scroll down to the very bottom and you'll see: (copyright) 1998 - 2006 Christian News Service - Raiders News Network. I just can't decide if they are Conservative, Fundamentalist, or Evangelical. They're very confusing, but definitely not Liberal. However, if you read the about us section, they report the news in an unbiased way without regard to religion or politics. Um... then what's with all the far-right books on both sides of the articles and gets worse as one scroll down? :huh: They are very confusing, but their name has nothing to do with football and they are right-wing. That much I do know.

As for Raiders of the Lost Ark, I wasn't thinking of the movie. I was thinking of the "lost ark" where everyone walks one by one and two by two. You could take that as nice teasing or mean teasing, of course, but it was the best I could come up with for them with all their books and what not on every page, just so I could laugh. If I didn't find something to laugh about, I'd get a headache everytime I followed a link that you posted to that site.

[Kestra]

I think Kes nailed it when she said "Merkabah" -- even if in joking form.
see comment posted by Alisa (http://bbs.roddenberry.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=60927#post60927). ;) well actually, i wasn't completely joking. Merkabah means Light. at the risk of sounding like a toon, darling and i have seen Merkabah as have others we know personally. and the friend i mentioned from Canada has been filming them since the 70's. we have a copy of her films.

[Alisa]

As for Raiders of the Lost Ark, I wasn't thinking of the movie. I was thinking of the "lost ark" where everyone walks one by one and two by two. You could take that as nice teasing or mean teasing, of course, but it was the best I could come up with for them with all their books and what not on every page, just so I could laugh. If I didn't find something to laugh about, I'd get a headache everytime I followed a link that you posted to that site.
nobody said you *had* to actually read it... :D
(there are other people here reading this topic, too)

anywho... not talking about the floating water boat...
there's also the "Lost Ark of the Covenant" ... the sacred, special box that "housed" God on special occasions... and eventually rested in the temple away from the sight of the people, because they weren't allowed to touch it... the ark was part of the actual MERCY SEAT in the Holy Temple, where the "Spirit" of God, the *Shekinah Glory* came down to rest upon.


hmmmm... Kestra... now that I think about it...
when the ark was in active use and being moved from one location to another, could there have been some sort of energy source house within it that could have caused an electrical surge when the good samaritan Israelite tried to steady it (and died shortly after!), after one of the wheels carrying it in transport fell or started to wobble off??

I'm thinking more in terms of "HAZMAT" or special clothing gear that protected the high priests while carrying and moving it...??? something nuclear even?? it does cause one to wonder, especially since the Bible (both Judaeo and Christian halves) is famous for leaving OUT, and NOT giving us ALL of the details... and if so, *WHAT* is something like that doing in a book that was written over 3,000 years ago??

vonDaniken may have been on to something with his "Chariots of the Gods" theories... but he couldn't visualize it as we're able to do so nowadays, and include the scientific ("living" energy producing) materials with the Biblical visions... Plus, it would *definitely* put a twist into the Bible just being a bunch of fiction and fables... :p

watching Star Trek and Stargate definitely helps in unraveling these mysteries... :wgrin:

[Mriana]

nobody said you *had* to actually read it... :D
(there are other people here reading this topic, too)

I think you misunderstood. Religion itself doesn't give me a headache, but rather dogmatics, Fundamentalism, and the violence that sometimes goes with religion. I can talk about it in a Secular manner all day long until dogmatics, Fundamentalism, and/or violence (verbal or otherwise) gets involved. Well, maybe not all day, but you get the point.

[Alisa]

awww, sorry about the headaches... how about another one, and these sorts always give me migraines from straining my brain too much... :D

here's another *DEEP* question... if the Mayan civilizations were aware of space-ship transports and had accurate measurements to the inth degrees of astronomical and mathematical, scientific measurements data... exactly what kinds of books *were* destroyed during the infamous Dark Ages (history A.D.)... Why would the Mayan observatories still exist, and the people or most of their knowledge gone extinct??

we're only told about burning of the books (during the Dark Ages) being "blasphemous" ... knowledge, science, philosophies, etc, anything that the people who wanted to push us back into darkness believed *NEEDED* to be destroyed and burned up. It's such a dark area of history, that I don't think we have ALL of the details on "everything" that was destroyed in those years, either...

but going back a few hundreds or thousand years, if space-travel existed for higher beings visiting earth before the great transition point of history (when Jesus of Nazareth actually walked on the earth), and Israeli priests had access to the Temple of the LORD, if the Holy Temple was actually a landing pad of sorts for u-know-who... just what if some of those books were actually SCIENCE formulas on nuclear energy, fusion, etc... and we're just getting around in the 21st century back to what once was starting to develop before the Dark Ages destroyed such "knowledge"...??

(Hey, I always *knew* Jesus wasn't from this world, when he said "my kingdom is not of this world")... ;)
...just didn't know the from *where* or *how's*...

and if all you folks out there requiring SCIENCE to support the (dramatic effect) empty tomb "fiction/mystery", missing body disappearing from a sealed tomb, hmmm -- maybe it was a "transport beam" from space that did it... and the angels seen on that "Resurrection" morning were guardians sent to tidy things up a bit, thus the folded cloth/napkin that covered Jesus' head... :p

I've just never looked at life this way, because it sounds too *cultish*.... I'm sure the E.T. folks (not from the TV channel) would love to exploit or explore these (*possible*) theories... but it would explain mankind's insatiable curiosity about Sci-Fi programming, and how all that fascinating mumbo-jumbo actually works...
(Doctor Who, Star Trek & spin-offs, Earth-Final Conflict, Stargate... sort of makes more sense now...)
:SHS:


I can't believe I'm actually thinking along this way, but it goes back even further (a few years ago) than this topic when it suddenly hit me about what the future might actually have been recording about -- Biblically speaking... except what I was thinking had more to do with the hope of mankind living long enough into being capable of traveling beyond earth's solar system into other galaxies in the future... not from the so-called "dead and buried" past.

[Dot]

unfortunately as soon as a *beleagured* society becones the successor the first thing it does is destroy the history and sciences and collected knowledge of the one they beat.

they BECOME what they claim to hate..

the ancient libraries of greece, crete, minios, egypt, babylon, israel, nazzeria, inca, maya and american indians were all destroyed by the *conquorers* the ancient text of mathmatics and mathamatical astronomy of china were destroyed from within by Emporer Shih Huang-ti of the Ch'in dynasty..
if only we had all of those wonderful ancient text today..

[Mriana]

awww, sorry about the headaches... how about another one, and these sorts always give me migraines from straining my brain too much... :D

No the Mayan stuff, science and alike doesn't trigger my headaches, Alisa- it's the dogma and alike. As for your question, I think Dot answered it a whole lot better than I ever could, because you lost me in places.

[Alisa]

As writers, Elorie and I both know why people write- to hopefully make money, but not necessarily to get rich. Honest writers enjoy writing and wish to entertain their readers. If they make money that's a wonderful kickback to a career in the entertainment field.
there are other reasons to write... lest school itself wouldn't exist!
As for C.S. Lewis'
C.S. Lewis, like a lot of writers, dreamed about his books and what he would write next. The difference between him and La Haye is that he admits he dreamed about what he was currently writing or had put on the back burner to finish later, instead of drumming up false statements about his fiction. He even stated that some of the conclusions some people came up with about his children's book (The Narnia Chronicles for example) were not his intentions.
so, maybe he changed his mind... lots of people do -- and for different reasons. Nothing bizarre or scammy about that.

I've done that to one script alone. changed it's storyline characters at least 3 times, and the final story version itself over 500 times, too. Still got nowhere (because I got indecisive over how to draw out a few spots in it). I'm still sitting on it -- in my head... :p

La Haye on the other hand says to play on peoples dogmas and to get rich, "Oh God told me what to write in a dream, so therefore it's true and what is to come." in an effort to scam people and to make millions as a false prophet. :rolleyes: As a writer, he is deplorable! :mad: He doesn't know the name of any person who is going to be an "evil" world leader. He's made it all up, just like honest writers make up their stories. His books are just works of fiction, like any other writer, but he tells blatant lies about just to make millions.
did it ever occur to you that maybe he isn't a mind reader, and really doesn't know?? I get *that* answer a lot from my husband. I've never seen La Haye's work as that of a scam, when he helped co-write // inspire the "Left Behind" series. It was a fictional setting, based on what he believed from what was written as historically "RECORDED" material from over 1800 years ago and beyond that.

According to some people, the Bible is erroneously imagined as something that is all "God" - but it is more than just that... I've heard it being declared as part medical book, part health book, part romance (???!), part spiritual, part genealogy, part history... and all about how life on earth to our 21st century past and future is affected...

But did it ever occur to anyone that just *maybe* the Bible is merely a compilation record document of humans - from 2 sources of people living on the planet (Jews and Christians), and what they and the world around them are doing to each other?? Is it *necessary* to PROVE scientifically, what is missing from some details (of the synchronized // blessed Septuagint version) how the *mysterious* ark affected people in and out of the Temple? It becomes a matter of *faith* - when certain details end up missing (MIA)...

And knowing how some writers of today (2007 A.D./C.E) are politically trying to wipe out, nullify, or cancel out their opponents' political party system or the people running it, how do we know 100% that such things didn't occur in the past, and thus act as political butchering of various truths in the years Biblical things were actually written? We weren't there, so we cannot PROVE it one way or the other... and that's where *faith* always comes in on any issue.

yeah, mankind is the creature destroying the earth, and in various ways, too... I realized that after September 11, 2001 (A.D./C.E.), when the whole world went nutzo on a death rampage. That's when I put 2 and 2 together, and realized, humans are making the bombs (including the BIG BOOM ones). Humans are pulling the triggers.

...and the major reason why the article got me soooooo upset
...hunh??!!!! this is sheer *insanity*...!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad:
posted on RaidersNewsNetwork web site...
"Why John Hagee Wants Immediate Nuclear War In Jesus Name"
© 2007 by The American Prospect, Inc....

- it wasn't in the Biblical details mentioned within the article (i knew about those), but in the article's title ...and thensome... which was implying
how some people are deliberately pushing for Armageddon in their own way, instead of it happening because of circumstances that they didn't intentionally cause, and went beyond their control. A good example of that might be a mega-asteroid from outer space (wormwood?) smacking into earth, and the people still alive afterward would be dealing with its aftermath, while some corrupted person is put into a world-wide position of power. :rolleyes:

[Alisa]

unfortunately as soon as a *beleagured* society becones the successor the first thing it does is destroy the history and sciences and collected knowledge of the one they beat.

they BECOME what they claim to hate..

the ancient libraries of greece, crete, minios, egypt, babylon, israel, nazzeria, inca, maya and american indians were all destroyed by the *conquorers* the ancient text of mathmatics and mathamatical astronomy of china were destroyed from within by Emporer Shih Huang-ti of the Ch'in dynasty..
if only we had all of those wonderful ancient text today..
:SHS:
so short of having a time machine to simply observe and NOT interfere with the timelines (interdimensional?? we can see them, but they are not affected in any form by our presence), finding out what *really* went on actually and factually is just wishful thinking... and possibly *distorting* certain items too, just in order to grasp or comprehend it all.

[Mriana]

But did it ever occur to anyone that just *maybe* the Bible is merely a compilation record document of humans - from 2 sources of people living on the planet (Jews and Christians), and what they and the world around them are doing to each other?? Is it *necessary* to PROVE scientifically, what is missing from some details (of the synchronized // blessed Septuagint version) how the *mysterious* ark affected people in and out of the Temple? It becomes a matter of *faith* - when certain details end up missing (MIA)...

OK and Adam and Eve were real people who originally populated the Earth single handedly. Guess their children married each other too. :dunno2:

[Alisa]

OK and Adam and Eve were real people who originally populated the Earth single handedly. Guess their children married each other too. :dunno2:

okee-dokeee.... since you brought it up... and I really hate to point the following details out, but...
I'm guessing the entire debate over Adam and Eve is focused on their "names" being written into the book of Genesis. Well, I was going to cut some slack and suggest something unique about that dirt that Adam got created from -- that just *maybe* it was a creative version of describing "evolution"

God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them

Genesis 1:27, NIV
if anyone is confused about the extra gap between there and Genesis 2:15-23, there is such a thing as writers getting sidetracked, and then reiterating their original thought with an expanded one later... gosh, how many times do we do that here?? Anyone taking English classes in school should *know* that the introductory paragraph is (supposed to be) an inkling of the greater whole, expanded in following paragraphs. I got suckered into that rule in junior high and high school, and ended up with more C's than B's in English, because I didn't know how to develop my introductory thoughts too well.

Computers are great for helping people get past that problem nowadays... do the main body paragraphs/frame as it pops into your mind, then formulate your master first (introductory) paragraph. Maybe Genesis is written that way, because the writer(s) had the same problems forming their thoughts as I have.

Also, strangely enough -- in case anyone forgot... the story of Adam is repeated in the
recorded genealogies of 1st Chronicles. See verses 1-3.

To Noah's sons
Adam,
Seth,
Enosh,
Kenan,
Mahalalel,
Jared,
Enoch,
Methuselah,
Lamech,
Noah...

1st Chronicles 1:1-3, NIV
That's nine generations between Adam and Noah, with Noah being the 10th name (and 9th generational descendant of or from Adam) on the generational genealogy list. If people claim that the Bible is a myth, because they don't believe in Adam being a real, single persona, then so is King David and Solomon - David's son. Both King David and Solomon are part of that same genealogical structure and written into the book of
1st Chronicles 2:13-15 and continues up thru 1st Chronicles 3:5
1:27) and Abram (that is, Abraham).
The family of Abraham
1:28) The sons of Abraham:
Isaac and Ishmael.
Descendants of Hagar...
...
2:1) Judah...
2:13) Jesse was the father of Eliab his firstborn; ...and the seventh David.
...
3:4) David reigned in Jerusalem thirty-three years,
3:5) and these were the children born to him there:
...Solomon. These four were by Bathsheba daughter of Ammiel....

1st Chronicles -- selected verses as noted and verses 2:13-15, NIV
In other words, to discount Adam in either book, and especially in 1st Chronicles where it's been noted, is to declare the entire Jewish genealogy a farce and piece of fiction. King David never lived, neither did Abraham and Ishmael, which *that* in itself is a direct insult to the documentations from within the Muslim world. So, they're all just figments of someone else's *wild* imagination?? afterall, you can't treat the others as fictional names that never existed, if Adam never existed -- and as it was written accordingly to the genealogy listed.
It either is ALL true (in the genealogy list), or it is not. ;)

now, does anyone see the folly of these pursuits into the lands of fiction??
... illogical...!! ...does not compute...!!
too many other toes are getting stepped on in the process... I think the books were purposely written that way for a reason. To stop anyone thruout history from attempting to fictionalize various details on a pick and choose method system. Whatever sounds good and plausible - keep. Whatever doesn't make any sense - throw it out. :rolleyes:

Another detail in the *blessed* Septuagint version is that according to some theologians, during the 1980's I heard that the book of Isaiah contains snippets or clues for each chapter that parallels that particular book in the bible, in the order of the finalized *blessed* Septuagint books. This is a major theory, if proven true. I know someone who has the snippets study list described from each and where the parallel references are, and I tried to save myself some money by not ordering it (J.R.Church, in particular has an extensive study on this) -- but I'm not sure which version order the Jewish books are taken from -- so I was guessing they were from the original Jewish order of scriptures. It requires knowing what books come in that specific arrangement in order to match each chapter of Isaiah to the items in question. You can't do that with a Catholic Bible because its additional order of books throw the entire order of Isaiah's chapters paralleling the Septuagint books off, or any other Bible version containing extra books beyond the so-called *blessed* books...

What's more amazing about that, is that according to the parallel Septuagint book to Isaiah chapter theory -- randomly near the middle of Isaiah's book is Isaiah 40:3. If the book of Matthew in Septuagint order is actually the 40th book of the Bible, does such a *theory* hold true? actually, it does, and I found out without ordering the study list for myself. Isaiah 40:3 has a parallel representative also written within the 40th book of the Septuagint Bible - it's a reinforcement passage written (completely randomly??) into the (40th Septuagint version) book of Matthew.

NOTE: (40th book in Bible=Matthew) Matthew 3:3 reinforces references made previously in Isaiah 40:3...!!
Matt.3:1) In those days John the Baptist came...
Matt.3:3) "A voice of one calling in the the desert,
'Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.'"

Isaiah 40:3) A voice of one calling:
"In the desert prepare the way for the Lord;
make stright in the wilderness a highway for our God.

(both passages are from the NIV Bible)
can anyone *rationally* explain that?? - if these books were just randomly thrown together without rhyme or reason by a higher power overseeing these things... I personally find it highly doubtful that some ingeniously brainy-minded people thought up such a crazy idea centuries ago to suddenly, extremely *carefully* and deliberately arrange the books so that each one would line up exactly with each chapter of Isaiah. Especially, since people that lived before the 20th century have been compared to being rather primitive in culture and certain intelligences.

I have yet to hear any rational explanations that can clear up this particular mystery of time and documentation. That's mostly why I've been mostly avoiding answering or countering any discussions about dismissing the Bible as a work of fiction and fables or allegory, up until now. :wgrin:

[Mriana]

What's more amazing about that, is that according to the parallel Septuagint book to Isaiah chapter theory -- randomly near the middle of Isaiah's book is Isaiah 40:3 - which actually has a reinforcement representative passage written into the book of Matthew. Matthew 3:3 reinforces references to Isaiah 40:3...!!

can anyone *rationally* explain that?? - if these books were just randomly thrown together without rhyme or reason by a higher power overseeing these things... I personally find it highly doubtful that some ingeniously brainy-minded people thought up such a crazy idea centuries ago to suddenly, extremely *carefully* and deliberately arrange the books so that each one would line up exactly with each chapter of Isaiah. Especially, since people that lived before the 20th century have been compared to being rather primitive in culture and certain intelligences.

I have yet to hear any rational explanations that can clear up this particular mystery of time and documentation. That's mostly why I've been mostly avoiding answering or countering any discussions about dismissing the Bible as a work of fiction and fables or allegory, up until now. :wgrin:

Um... Yeah. The author of Matthew not only wrote the gospel using the Hebrew Litergical Calendar, but he also rewrote not only Mark's account (the books are not in the order they were written) and added to it, but referred back to the Hebrew writngs also. He was borrowing from various sources to write his account.

Now for the contradictions Matthew has Mary and Joseph living in Bethlehem (Matt 2:9) Luke has them living in Galilee in the town of Nazareth (Luke 2:1-8). I could continue, but make of it what you want. There are a lot more between the four Gospels, but I really don't have time to list them all.

In other words, to discount Adam in either book, and especially in 1st Chronicles where it's been noted, is to declare the entire Jewish genealogy a farce and piece of fiction. King David never lived, neither did Abraham and Ishmael, which *that* in itself is a direct insult to the documentations from within the Muslim world. So, they're all just figments of someone else's *wild* imagination?? afterall, you can't treat the others as fictional names that never existed, if Adam never existed -- and as it was written accordingly to the genealogy listed.
It either is ALL true (in the genealogy list), or it is not.

now, does anyone see the folly of these pursuits into the lands of fiction??

You're right. Either one is right and one is wrong or neither are true and they are just a bunch of stories humans made up for whatever purpose. I can find some Jews who will tell you the O.T. is a lot of stories even, but since you want more of an answer than that, let me go to some of my resources...

I don't have to use a resource for the Creation story and BTW, I enjoyed reading your version of Intelligent Design- very interesting. There are TWO different versions of the Creation story both in Genesis Chapters 1 and 2, even my mother wonders about that one and she's a Fundamentalist. There are contradictions in the Flood story too- Genesis 6:19-22 and Genesis 7:2-3. They are obviously being told by two different writers IMO.

For more on this with a rational POV you can either read "Why Christianity Must Change or Die" and "A New Christianity for a New World" both By Bishop John Shelby Spong or you can read an online version here: http://www.americanhumanist.org/humanism/thebible.html BTW, your question about King David is in this article too as well as your name thing you mentioned- under contradictions and maybe a few other places. They are sited so you can refer to your Bible and look them up for yourself. I know you're going to want to keep it handy for it is a very through article.

And for your answers concerning Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, you can probably read Karen Armstrong's "A History Of God" and find your answers.

No their answers are not "It's fiction", just scholarly critisms. Give me time and I can find you my other resources to refer too, if you want them. Of course, you may need some time just to read the online article if you decide to read it and find your answers there. In fact, there is another online source in my bookmarks somewhere, if you're interested. You could also add Valerie Tarico's book to that list that I mentioned some where too.

Of course, if you do dare read enough of these resources, you may never look at the Bible the same way again. It just depends on whether or not you really want to inquire into your questions.

[Kestra]

hmmmm... Kestra... now that I think about it...
when the ark was in active use and being moved from one location to another, could there have been some sort of energy source house within it that could have caused an electrical surge when the good samaritan Israelite tried to steady it (and died shortly after!), after one of the wheels carrying it in transport fell or started to wobble off?? i believe there’s a part in the bible about Moses when he went to the mount. he was warned not to look directly upon god, lest he be destroyed. or something like that, there were lightening flashes and such. then again, maybe it contained the Medusan ambassador. :D

here's another *DEEP* question... if the Mayan civilizations were aware of space-ship transports and had accurate measurements to the inth degrees of astronomical and mathematical, scientific measurements data... exactly what kinds of books *were* destroyed during the infamous Dark Ages (history A.D.)... Why would the Mayan observatories still exist, and the people or most of their knowledge gone extinct?? i don’t think their knowledge went extinct, it’s just gone underground.
but going back a few hundreds or thousand years, if space-travel existed for higher beings visiting earth before the great transition point of history (when Jesus of Nazareth actually walked on the earth), and Israeli priests had access to the Temple of the LORD, if the Holy Temple was actually a landing pad of sorts for u-know-who... just what if some of those books were actually SCIENCE formulas on nuclear energy, fusion, etc... and we're just getting around in the 21st century back to what once was starting to develop before the Dark Ages destroyed such "knowledge"...??who knows how many times civilization(s) have been destroyed and had start all over.
I've just never looked at life this way, because it sounds too *cultish*.... all religion is ‘cultish’. the word cult has been distorted over the years as a label for out of ‘mainstream’ religion or devil worship.
To Noah's sons
Adam,
Seth,
Enosh,
Kenan,
Mahalalel,
Jared,
Enoch,
Methuselah,
Lamech,
Noah...i do not believe the conflict is whether or not they existed, but with whom did they procreate?

anyway, back to Merkabah, they are ships\Beings of Light. i first started seeing them in my mid-teens as flashes of light, much like lightening except much brighter. there were no clouds, nor thunder sounds. the ships can have various shapes, from balls of light to pyramids. the flashes of light are really cool, darling and i were watching them one night, they were so bright that night became day. in fact, the morning birds started to sing.

[Alisa]

i believe there’s a part in the bible about Moses when he went to the mount. he was warned not to look directly upon god, lest he be destroyed. or something like that, there were lightening flashes and such. then again, maybe it contained the Medusan ambassador. :D
The Lord asked Moses to cover his face as "the LORD" passed by, because no man (human) could ever look upon the face of God and live. However, Moses was allowed to see "God's" back. It's just amazing that the words sol, sun, and "son of God" (when seen *transformed*) are associated with bright, searing light. It's a wonder no one went blind if they did look. One person did look, and saw, and lived... I think it was Abraham, after he realized the angel of the LORD visiting him, was the LORD God. That's another reason why Abraham is (*probably*) held in such high esteem.

anyway, back to Merkabah, they are ships\Beings of Light. i first started seeing them in my mid-teens as flashes of light, much like lightening except much brighter. there were no clouds, nor thunder sounds. the ships can have various shapes, from balls of light to pyramids. the flashes of light are really cool, darling and i were watching them one night, they were so bright that night became day. in fact, the morning birds started to sing.
I've never seen any, unless one of them came into my room in the middle of the night, when I was around 3 or 4 years old. Scared the hee-bee-jeebees outta me, too.

[Kestra]

The Lord asked Moses to cover his face as "the LORD" passed by, because no man (human) could ever look upon the face of God and live. However, Moses was allowed to see "God's" back. It's just amazing that the words sol, sun, and "son of God" (when seen *transformed*) are associated with bright, searing light. It's a wonder no one went blind if they did look. One person did look, and saw, and lived... I think it was Abraham, after he realized the angel of the LORD visiting him, was the LORD God. That's another reason why Abraham is (*probably*) held in such high esteem. oh ok that was it, i couldn't remember. it kind of makes me wonder tho, if the god of the bible is really a Light Being, and why it would masquerade as a god. of course, i can see where those of biblical times might mistake them for a god. and maybe the whole point of Jesus wasn't to absolve mankind of sin, but to prepare us for the next step in our evolution. it's like that brain study thread Mriana posted a while back, where monkeys would experience what another was doing simply by watching them. so by observing Jesus 'ascend' it's in our DNA now.


I've never seen any, unless one of them came into my room in the middle of the night, when I was around 3 or 4 years old. Scared the hee-bee-jeebees outta me, too.
i've seen them indoors they're really nothing to fear. i can see where one might be a little unnerved by their appearance. they are really not so different than us, except they they are a little higher on the evolutionary scale than we. i remember back in the mid-80's i saw what appeared to be an extremely bright (like the sun) tornado of light at the foot of my bed. that one made a sound, lot's of energy. that was cool. i said hello to it and, "i see you." it hovered for a spell then was gone.

[Mriana]

I've never seen anything, but I have had that peaceful transcendent feeling in nature and with nature (like with my pets), even as a child. Then I had that same feeling when I saw my older son's face staring up at me for the first time and less then an hour old. It's like heaven on Earth or god in us and around us for me. Oh, I've had that feeling at other times too, but it wasn't quite as profound.

Neuro-scientists have found there are a lot of brain chemicals going on in the frontal lobes and amygdala during these times. They have some very interesting studies on all of this and I find it very interesting.

[Kestra]

i to get that peaceful transcendent feeling in nature and with nature. the frogs are singing again, they're quite loud, i sleep with the bedroom window open so i can listen to them. it's sort of a nice day today, i think i'll go stand in the back yard today when they start singing and listen to them.

[Mriana]

It is a nice feeling, isn't it? :)

[Kestra]

i went into the backyard last night right before the rains came. it was awesome listening to the frogs sing in surround sound.

[Dot]

I really miss the spring peepers..

what they have here sounds like they are garggling with glass & sand..it's really sad

[Kestra]

bummer.

[Alisa]

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad -- news again. He must love the limelight / news attention..

however, I wasn't sure how one should react to reading this article...
please click on link in article title for complete details...

posted on WorldNetDaily web site...
"It's a Mahdi, Mahdi, Mahdi, Mahdi world!" (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54721)

By Michael Tummillo, Posted: March 16, 2007, 1:00 a.m. Eastern

Last year, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, addressing the U.N., asked Allah to quickly usher in "the Twelfth Imam."

As one, the all-knowing pundits and intellectual elite, mouths agape with wonder, replied, "Huh?" Sometimes referred to as the "Hidden Imam" or "The Mahdi," this utterance caused many to go scrambling to Google.

Many Shia Muslims, like Ahmadinejad, believe that this "Mahdi" – meaning "the guided one," referring to one guided by God – fulfills a type of messianic role in Islam, though it has been used by Sunnis to refer to various reformers who have arisen periodically in history to revive Islam when it has grown weak (watch Chuck Heston's "Khartoum"). The concept is more popular among the Shiites, who believe Mahdi to be the last in a line of saints descended from Ali, the founder of the Shia sect. They say he disappeared down a well in Iran, in A.D. 941, and went into a state of "occultation," like the sun disappearing behind the clouds. One fine day, after a terrible period of apocalyptic wars upon the earth, these clouds will part, and the Mahdi will be appear on the scene. When he is released from his imprisonment in the well, the entire world will finally convert to Islam.

That's what they say. That is the goal of Islamic terrorism: conversion or death. Face it, many see this as the goal of Christianity. Let's not throw stones. Over the centuries, we've been plenty guilty of advancing the cause through bloodshed, too. The truth is the goal of Christianity is not to score conversions or die. According to Jesus Christ, His "goal" – His Great Commission (Matt 28:18-20) – was that we make DISCIPLES, teaching them His ways of love. HUGE difference.

We laugh at unfamiliar religious notions like those of Ahmadinejad, but he is incredibly motivated. Where he's concerned, Islam is "to die for!" Not only does he believe it, but the tens of thousands of mullahs – teachers of Islam – throughout the Middle East and elsewhere believe it, too, and they're preaching it with great zeal. They are on a mission from God, fighting a Holy War. They're training their kids to hate Jews and Christians, Americans and anyone who sides with us. World domination or bust.
...
Iran will soon be able to carry out her nuclear threats. With his finger on the button, Ahmadinejad will be able to launch, driven by his desire to usher in the return of the Mahdi.

American and Israeli forces would retaliate immediately.

Talk about unleashing hell.

We can't leave Iraq. Neither can we defeat them with "horses and chariots." (Psalm 20:7) To all those who insist upon talking to these madmen, we can't reason with Iraq nor her neighbor, President Ahmadinejad of Iran.

But we CAN pray and evangelize their children like there's no tomorrow.

At this rate, frankly, there may not be.

and I also heard (on the radio news) if Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez ran for USA president - he'd win!
imagine having him for the (new/future) "AMERICA without borders" dictator...

[Mriana]

That's what they say. That is the goal of Islamic terrorism: conversion or death. Face it, many see this as the goal of Christianity. Let's not throw stones. Over the centuries, we've been plenty guilty of advancing the cause through bloodshed, too. The truth is the goal of Christianity is not to score conversions or die.

Um... There have been many people killed for not converting, heresy, etc in the past due to Christianity. Where did they get this idea? Haven't they read their history books? Huguenots, Inquisitions, Crusades, 100 years war, and that's just for starters. Conversions were important, esp during and after the Reformation.

[Alisa]

Um...
Haven't they read their history books? Huguenots, Inquisitions, Crusades, 100 years war, and that's just for starters. Conversions were important, esp during and after the Reformation.
i think you answered the article's own comment...
Face it, many see this as the goal of Christianity. Let's not throw stones. Over the centuries, we've been plenty guilty of advancing the cause through bloodshed, too.

read the bold print-- I think this is the Basics of what they meant, not what History has recorded...
The truth is the goal of Christianity is not to score conversions or die. According to Jesus Christ, His "goal" – His Great Commission (Matt 28:18-20) – was that we make DISCIPLES, teaching them His ways of love. HUGE difference.
POINT-- not to score how many souls get converted or die...
POINT-- to show the compassionate love of Jesus of Nazareth, and hope others might have compassion in return (treating others with respect, to gain respect and continue living a peaceful co-existence.)

and not everyone who "killed" in those historical warring years lived the true Christian nature.

The extreme of this is that Christians aren't allowed to use self-defense, based on the literal
(paraphrasing here) "turn the other cheek, so the enemy could strike the other."
So, where and when do you draw the line?

From bits and pieces of what I've heard, one side claims they put up with enough and decided to fight back, and that's how the Catholics got involved in the Crusades. The other side (the ones who were being targeted for slaughter) claims they had a right to purge the evil (of Christian blasphemers) out of their sight, and go on beheading campaigns, etc.

[Mriana]

Yes, but it was Christians killing Christians, Alisa, in the name of God. :eyeroll:

[Alisa]

sounds more like sibling rivalry if it's Christians killing other Christians...
one big, giant *happy* family... Hah! (that was not a laugh, either! more saracasm)

same name, but they were/are probably either different denominations or flavors of POVs from each other that were the root causes to beating up on each other. Even within the same churches of today, you can see the differences - and it's rooted mostly in each person's own, individual perspective, which when it goes against the "mainstream" - it isn't acceptable. Depends on how far off the course one is straying, on how severe the emotional ostracism goes... but if most people are going to operate according to Paul's teachings, ostracism of other Christians (not thinking the same way) would most likely rule every time.

sad, but probably very true. :sad:

[Mriana]

Well that was what the Crusades, Inquisitions, 30 years War (between the Catholics and the Huguenots), and the persecutions of the Huguenots was all about. The Huguenots were Calvinists and not liked by most Protestants and Catholics, for some reason, after the Reformation. The 30 Years War was one of the worst for them. The Peace of Ausburg (1555) didn't work as well as the Treaty of Nantes in keeping the peace between the Huguenots and other religious groups because it was not as tolerant as the Treaty of Nantes. The Treaty of Ausburg insisted on conversion and eventually led to the 30 Years War between Catholics and Protestants. It was intolerance and not sibling rivalry.

[lor]

Why must there be only one true religion?

Can't different paths lead to the same place?

..depends where you're going : :boom2: :horse:

[Mriana]

Are we going anywhere? I didn't know we where going anywhere. I don't believe there is a true religion. If there isn't a true religion, why should it matter? I don't think it does, but I do think we should live this life and in a way that hopefully betters humanity.

[Kestra]

no matter where you go, there they are, extremists of many faiths. the problem we're facing today in America is religious fascism. they are the ones pushing for "One World Religion" "Armageddon" "Rapture" that is where the real danger lay. that is why ppls of all faiths, non-faiths must unite and tell them "hell no!" in no uncertain terms.


Why must there be only one true religion?

Can't different paths lead to the same place? there is no one true religion, all paths lead toward the center.

[Alisa]

no matter where you go, there they are, extremists of many faiths. the problem we're facing today in America is religious fascism. they are the ones pushing for "One World Religion" "Armageddon" "Rapture" that is where the real danger lay.
(protesting!) but I'm not an *extremist* (except when getting *moody*) -- and I *believe* in the IF factor. :p

-- my sister (the one who talks with me), and I believe if the Rapture happens -- NOTE, emphasis on HUGE *iF* -- then it happens. Can't do anything to change it, just only accept it -- and it took me YEARs before I would accept anything near even that much. As for everything else (and the 1970's Cuban missile crisis didn't sit too well in my future outlook of earth book/POV), that's what the world is pushing towards, all on its own -- it's almost like watching the "keep up with the Jones" syndrome, except the higher privileged nations are doing all that with Nuclear tech; it's just a question of which direction and how.
:rolleyes:

Well that was what the Crusades, Inquisitions, 30 years War (between the Catholics and the Huguenots)... The Treaty of Ausburg insisted on conversion and eventually led to the 30 Years War between Catholics and Protestants. It was intolerance and not sibling rivalry.
at the risk of my own family reading any of this... life is too important! Living peacefully with each other and in harmony and melody should take precedence over petty fault-finding in each other... the following is a TRUE story, and up to now, mostly confidential between those who *lived* it, and others who had to put up with hearing about it upon stressful occasions...
:SHS:

The problem can basically start as intolerance from within one's own home; and if not there, then the neighborhood, and spread its antagonism outwards from there across entire countries and continents. I've seen this happen, so I *know* this is the truth.

If anyone doesn't think so, I have a story that goes back many years from within my own (Catholic) family. Sibling rivalry and ALL in the name of *religion*. Tolerance has always been expected on my part, but intolerance was practiced on my sister's part. Like father (daddy), like daughter. He was agnostic until the day before he died. I don't know what changed him, but somehow, I fully believe my (other) sister got extremely jealous because daddy saw me instead of her, before he died of a heart-attack the next day. Oh yeah, she had a nasty "religious" *what for* talk with me during his funeral, and had me in tears (again).

It gets worse. She originally got angry against me at her own wedding (long stupid story over fake flowers someone gave me, and I swore she'd hate me if I wore them, because I wasn't supposed to have ANY flowers - her request... nevermind, my "fiance" wanted me to look nice, but even HE resisted to appease her wish), and that was only the beginning of the rest... I forgave her from giving evil dagger eyes at me on her *congratulations! line*, by later asking her to be my bridesmaid at my own wedding later. I don't think she ever put 2 and 2 together and figured that was my way of saying, I *loved* her and forgave her for nearly aggravating my fiance-to-be into taking me home to get away from the insanity of what we were put thru in those few short moments. It also made a GREAT first impression on his opinion of her from that moment on. It was the first time she met him. Ever since, we've always believed he's been on her black list, even tho he had nothing to do with the fake flowers a female friend of the family gave me, and begged me to ignore my sister's antagonism against me, if it ever surfaced.

the crowning insult was going to visit our mom as a *surprise* visit (my gift to my mom), coincidently on the same day - without either of us (my sister nor me) knowing about it, prior. We found out only weeks before the journey. She never did go see our mom, and blamed it all on me. Instead of seeing it as an awesome moment in time, we could have had a wonderful family reunion, and fun time at the airport over how fate (the higher powers of authority we don't see, but can only sense at times like this) woved our separate events together - sort of as 2 minds with similar thoughts, and managed to be showing up at the same place at the same time, but via different travel routes (and ironically, we were both on the same tarmac at the same time, but in different airlines).

Instead, she blamed her avoiding to visit our mom with me showing up nearly at the same time, on our mom and me (for not changing my time to go visit - since SHE wanted that time to herself... which, to the rest of us, sounded extremely selfish; and nevermind, I could have slipped away over to our other sister's while SHE had time alone with MOM...! nope, that wasn't GOOD enough - someone else was nearby she utterly refused to see at the time), and she held a grudge against all of us. But most of all, she blamed me for switching religious sides from Catholic to becoming "born-again" and sharing that with our mom... she resents the fact that I shared that change in my behavior the day before our dad died. She wanted to party with our dad, and laugh about getting sick from drinking too much, and hugging the toilet bowl all night (oh yeah, that sounds like lots of fun right there!!) -- instead, he met Jesus... end result, her jealousy against me, it *was* sibling rivalry. :(

life is just too short to start wars over petty things like that! Besides, her POV had a very shallow end attached... my POV had longer lasting consequences (especially when its your own *eternity* vs. a having brief high before vomiting all night into a toilet bowl!). It was also the first day, my dad ever treated me as a *real* daughter (having some sort of respect for anything I said). Yep, all those years of fighting for high honors in school and becoming class valedictorian meant squat to him (from what I saw). Only thing that ever mattered was that one moment we shared talking about God, the day before he died. Ironically, he died on his way home from viewing another relative's funeral. By the grace of God, my mom made it home alive, because she took over the driving only moments before he complained of having pain in his left arm. :eek4:

...and if my sister does find this message, I just want her to know that I love her more than she'll ever know. She has no idea how I *really* feel or have felt from all those years I had to keep forgiving her bitterness being thrown at me... and partly because it was in the name of "religion".
:sad:

so I can fully understand how petty "religious" wars started centuries ago... and probably started out over petty things like what I just described, except only the bigger issues made it into the history books.

[Mriana]

The problem can basically start as intolerance from within one's own home; and if not there, then the neighborhood, and spread its antagonism outwards from there across entire countries and continents. I've seen this happen, so I *know* this is the truth.

One's own family if not in the home. I know this from experience. Trust me, my mother, aunt, and grandmother, who are fundamentalist, climb the walls because my sons and I believe differently. My older son says he is a Tao Buddhist, while my younger son professes to nothing, and it's all my fault. :eyeroll: Whatever. Good thing it is all over the phone. Makes it really easy to say, "I have to go". :LOL:

[Alisa]

One's own family if not in the home. I know this from experience... and it's all my fault. :eyeroll: Whatever. Good thing it is all over the phone. Makes it really easy to say, "I have to go". :LOL:
ut oh, we just agreed again... :eek2:
;)
buying specialty cards also makes it easier, too. When there's only a limited selection in the affordable dollar range, and the higher priced cards make budgeting everything else more difficult - yes, the other person is worth the extra moolah, but your heart is trying to share what's in your heart, not what comes from your wallet. That's what I thought my sister (who is so opposed to me now) was trying to stress for many years, until she turned into a yuppie, and expected more from everyone, regardless of whatever she said previously. It's the curse of suffering from a split personality, too -- you never knew which one you'd be greeted with. Janus - the statue (guy) on the commercial with 2 faces...

anyway, one thing I forgot to mention...
Well that was what the Crusades, Inquisitions, 30 years War (between the Catholics and the Huguenots)... The Treaty of Ausburg insisted on conversion and eventually led to the 30 Years War between Catholics and Protestants. It was intolerance and not sibling rivalry.
If all "Christians" are supposedly or apparently united as (adopted) brothers and sisters by *faith* and in believing that Jesus is the Messiah of the world, etc., then, it *is* sibling rivalry that started the petty, but strongly opinionated differences between the "Catholics vs. Protestants" wars in the first place.

What started in the family or the home, eventually spread outward (because others decided to copy/mimic the same problems, or endured thru similar experiences and finally made those situations MORE public) into the community and abroad -- until it joined the east to the west sides of planet earth into complete turmoil. ...and ALL in the name of "religion" ... or wars from one's own heart. It's the story of Cain and Able all over again. It just has different names, nationalities, historical time periods, and faces attached. It's the age old argument of
I'm right, you're wrong!!!
clash of the (family) Titans. *sigh*

[Mriana]

Well... Luther helped too, BUT he brought out a lot of good points about the Church too. Then the King of England decided he wanted to divorce his wife for not giving him a son. Well... The pope's best friend was her brother and said, "No way Jose! Her brother would have MY head!" So, the king of England said to the Archbishop of Cantabury, "Pssst! Come here! I want to start my own church and you can head it up if you like, but on one condition- you grant me a divorce. We'll call it the Church of England and run it much like the Catholic Church, but that Pope down in Rome has nothing to do with it." The Archbishop said, "OK, that sounds good and fair. You're divorced." Thus the start of the Anglican Church. However, the king beheaded his next wife for supposedly cheating on him, but the Anglican Church started all because the king wanted to divorce his wife and the Pope wouldn't let him. After he died, the daughter of the beheaded wife, took her revenge when she got the thrown and forced everyone to be Catholic again. Then everyone went back to being Anglican after she died or something.

Ah, religious history. Ain't it grand? :eyeroll:

[Kestra]

(protesting!) but I'm not an *extremist* (except when getting *moody*) -- and I *believe* in the IF factor. :p
i know you’re not, it’s the extremists i just wanted to bring them to light and that we need to keep our eyes on them.
well, the first ‘sibling rivalry’ does seem to have started with Cain and Able. i think it mostly has to do with manipulation, ppl manipulating others for their own personal agenda and power. this is portrayed quite eloquently in "The Mists of Avalon".


i really wish you and Mirana would quit agreeing, you're spooking the little ones and now they're afraid to take their afternoon naps. ;)

[Mriana]

[FONT=Verdana][COLOR=purple]i i really wish you and Mirana would quit agreeing, you're spooking the little ones and now they're afraid to take their afternoon naps. ;)

Sorry, but we couldn't help it. Let's see... What can I say that Alisa would disagree with, so the girls will feel better? :huh: :dtwins: There! That oughta do it. :LOL:

[Alisa]

devil's bad breath won't do it -- that's making someone join the same side... :p

I know--
here's one she won't agree with -- *IF* rapture happens... it'll be BYE!! :D
:exit:

but *if* it does happen, it'll be too late to hitch a ride. Transporter beams are ready for go...! ;)
oh, and I forgot ... depending on how strongly Kes feels about these things, we're taking Kes with us... (*grin*)

[Dot]

don't know if Kes would want to go to *that* heaven..lol
I'd rather dine witn the devil then be in the same room as Bush, Fallwell and gingrich..can't think of a worse place to be..

course they might all be in hell, and not know it..heh heh heh..

[Alisa]

I'd rather dine witn the devil then be in the same room as Bush, Fallwell and gingrich..can't think of a worse place to be..

course they might all be in hell, and not know it..heh heh heh..
I think in order for "hell" to be a genuine "Hell" for the devil, it means he'll be in an isolation chamber all by himself for the rest of eternity... no partying to enjoy that
misery loves company
routine any more... poor devil... well, that's one interpretation I've heard.

don't know if Kes would want to go to *that* heaven..lol
anyway, back to Merkabah, they are ships\Beings of Light...
well, if Kes' Merkabah is the same thing as we've been discussing earlier, it's just phrased and understood (envisioned as) slightly differently -- and depending on how strongly she wants that microchip, depends on whether or not we'll be on the same Merkabah or not...

maybe it (the idea of the {Christian understanding of} *Rapture*) was meant as a one time in history type of phrase and not completely instantaneously... as in cloaked shuttles waiting to take those waiting into the other dimension. Sort of on a domino effect transportation system... :D

[Mriana]

devil's bad breath won't do it -- that's making someone join the same side... :p

OK how about this: :reading: Hey, Q wrote a Gnostic gospel. Guess Q has been around forever. Now we can ask him to fill in the parts that are missing from age. :LOL: Hey Q! You around and are you busy gallivanting around the universe or in the Q Continuum? We have some questions to ask you about your book you wrote thousands of years ago.

[Alisa]

OK how about this: :reading: Hey, Q wrote a Gnostic gospel. Guess Q has been around forever.
well, of course he's been around forever...! that's a no-brainer. :D
But the Gnostic gospels weren't part of the blessed Septuagint ... that's the key to Isaiah's 66 chapters in contrast to the 66 selectively chosen books of both OLD/NEW testaments of the Christian Bible.

so the Gnostic gospel wouldn't have any impact whatsoever. :p
It wouldn't change anything, because it would be an *added* book that was not considered to be part of the most "Holy" texts. ...and that includes all those extra apocryphal books, 6th books of Moses, etc..

EDIT-- and we all know how Q likes to *bend* rules a little bit. So, how would we know what he's saying is the (100%) *truth*?

now, here's a brilliant question that no one (here, so far) has the answer to
(except for the intervention of almighty God // the "spirit of the LORD" supervising these matters)--
how can it be that the chosen 66 books of the "blessed Septuagint" version match each chapter of Isaiah in consecutive order, so that the following situation occurs--

Originally posted by Alisa (http://bbs.roddenberry.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=61343#post61343):

What's more amazing about that, is that according to the parallel Septuagint book to Isaiah chapter theory -- randomly near the middle of Isaiah's book is Isaiah 40:3. If the book of Matthew in Septuagint order is actually the 40th book of the Bible, does such a *theory* hold true? actually, it does, and I found out without ordering the study list for myself. Isaiah 40:3 has a parallel representative also written within the 40th book of the Septuagint Bible - it's a reinforcement passage written (completely randomly??) into the (40th Septuagint version) book of Matthew.

NOTE: (40th book in Bible=Matthew) Matthew 3:3 reinforces references made previously in Isaiah 40:3...!!
Matt.3:1) In those days John the Baptist came...
Matt.3:3) "A voice of one calling in the the desert,
'Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.'"

Isaiah 40:3) A voice of one calling:
"In the desert prepare the way for the Lord;
make stright in the wilderness a highway for our God.

(both passages are from the NIV Bible)
can anyone *rationally* explain that?? - if these books were just randomly thrown together without rhyme or reason by a higher power overseeing these things... I personally find it highly doubtful that some ingeniously brainy-minded people thought up such a crazy idea centuries ago to suddenly, extremely *carefully* and deliberately arrange the books so that each one would line up exactly with each chapter of Isaiah. Especially, since people that lived before the 20th century have been compared to being rather primitive in culture and certain intelligences.

I have yet to hear any rational explanations that can clear up this particular mystery of time and documentation.
the silence is LOUD... ;)

[Mriana]

I did explain it and it was anything about God, but the writers. Go back a few posts.

Try the post that follows right after it. I went into details of all that I have learned about that: http://bbs.roddenberry.com/showpost.php?p=61345&postcount=89 I even gave various resources, including one online resource.

Clarification: Mark was written first. They were not put in the Bible in the order they were written. Matthew borrowed from Mark for he was not satified with Mark's version, took verses from the Talmud- such as Ezekiel- to fit into his version and wrote the account, just as Mark did, using the Hebrew litergical calendar.

OK I've invited the wonderful "Bible Geek" (Robert Price) here to answer this question far better than I can. http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/ I don't know if he'll come or not, but if nothing else, he might help me to give you a clearer answer or give me another reference to give you.

[Alisa]

Try the post that follows right after it. I went into details of all that I have learned about that: http://bbs.roddenberry.com/showpost.php?p=61345&postcount=89 I even gave various resources, including one online resource.

Clarification: Mark was written first. They were not put in the Bible in the order they were written.
BUT *that* is EXACTLY the point, tho! -- how could a bunch of books randomly written at different time periods all thruout a historical timeline of probably over a 2,000 year time span (or more), mysteriously follow the EXACT order of chapters in Isaiah per each order of book in the pattern of the "blessed Septuagint" version that it is sold on shelves today???

EDIT: try this link below to your post - it works better...
(that's the system I've been using... should add it to the Forum Features topic!)
your above link is going to a single view screen, the link here goes to the whole page, but starts at your actual post :)
http://bbs.roddenberry.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=61345#post61345

follow my point -- that it couldn't be some crazy persons who compiled these things, suddenly got a bright idea to see if there WAS a connection to each book in the order of Isaiah and put them together in that order... It Can't make sense, not under rational *human* terms. (as Spock would say - "that's illogical!") :p

Otherwise, what you're saying is that hundreds of years ago (say 1500's A.D./C.E. for some of these various decisions), a bunch of mad-minded scribes decided to play a joke on the rest of us thruout history, and *painstakingly* poured over every page of every word ever written, prayed over them, and decided to compile those that matched up to a particular book, Isaiah, and reorganize the rest of the remaining order of books for the Christian (NEW Testament) half of the Bible, by an amazing coincidence of verses matching up in some form or another.

Personally, I think it takes MORE *faith* to believe in that, than it does to believe in the "Spirit of the LORD" (shekinah glory or the "Merkabah") watched over these events and moved human hearts to put the books into the order they were in... those voices in our head, so to speak... wow! 2 minds having similar thoughts - GREAT idea!! so, how or where'd those same people come up with such a *brilliant* idea, and *why* put them in THAT particular order...? What was their (human reasoning or) motivation?

here's wikipedia's reference link for details on the "Septuagint" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint).

Coincidence or not -- that's the order. I even checked it both ways for the OLD Testament half in the "Holy" Jewish Bible order vs the standard Christian Bible order. The Jewish Bible order is the one that clues in on parallels to other chapters in Isaiah, based on the order of 39 books selected for the "blessed Septuagint" version. The remaining 27 books are from the New Testament side and start at Isaiah chapter 40 and parallels the New Testament side, which also starts with Matthew. Forget dates...

the dates of when they were written don't matter in this situation. It's how they were processed to be put into the order we see them now, and how any of that particular order can parallel chapters in Isaiah that remains the mystery. THAT is the *point*...

[Mriana]

It Can't make sense, under rational *human* terms.

Otherwise, what you're saying is that hundreds of years ago (say 1500's A.D./C.E. for some of these various decisions), a bunch of mad-minded scribes decided to play a joke on the rest of us thruout history, and *painstakingly* poured over every page of every word ever written, prayed over them, and decided to compile those that matched up to a particular book, Isaiah, and reorganize the rest of the remaining order of books for the Christian (NEW Testament) half of the Bible, by an amazing coincidence of verses matching up in some form or another.

It does if you are thinking rationally and yes, if you want to put it that way, a bunch of mad-minded scribes did. THAT is what scribes do. They pour over the books sometimes every single page and in this case, whoever wrote Matthew (we don't know who really wrote it) did EXACTLY that and Mark's account too. It takes REASON to think about all of this rationally. BTW, the authors of the Gospels were not writing for Christians at the time, but rather Jews or Jews-Christians. The authors were Jews.

Personally, I think it takes MORE *faith* to believe in that, than it does to believe in the "Spirit of the LORD" (shekinah glory or the "Merkabah") watched over these events and moved human hearts to put the books into the order they were in... those voices in our head, so to speak... wow! 2 minds having similar thoughts - GREAT idea!! so, how or where'd those same people come up with such a *brilliant* idea, and *why* put them in THAT particular order...? What was their (human reasoning or) motivation?

Oh there is that word *faith*. Let me pick on that for a minute... It has nothing to do with faith on my part. Many Biblical scholars have stated this about the NT, not just me- it who I've learned from to be honest. Knowledge and reason have nothing to do with faith. Faith is belief without reason. Reason and faith are not compatible. Religious belief and faith are. Supposedly when a theist comes back with "Well, it's a question of faith" or something similar they are unable to provide a real answer. I've tried to provide an answer- one not based on faith, but on reason and knowledge. You asked the question and I tried to provide what reason, knowledge and resources I have to you. Maybe, if the Bible Geek comes here or gives me more to answer your question, that will help even more.

Now the order of the books in the NT came from a meeting in Constantanople or one of those 3 place (Not Rome) of HUMAN men, NOT God, and they decided what order the books in the NT should be. Again: NOT God. BTW, they were all holy men who knew the books well as well as the books of the OT. So, think about it. What was their motivation? I don't know. Why Paul who degrades women? Woe to the women if they take Paul's writing literally and as the inerrant word of God. Doesn't sound like a life to me. So why Paul? Why not the Gospel of Mary Magdeline instead? The men who put the books in the order that they did are dead, so we can not ask them, unless someone took the minutes and the minutes are still available to us today.

here's wikipedia's reference link for details on the "Septuagint" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint).

Wikipedia is the WORST source one could use. It not accorrect unless a Bible Scholar went behind the less knowledgable people and fixed their errors.

[b]Coincidence or not -- that's the order. I even checked it both ways for the OLD Testament half in the "Holy" Jewish Bible order vs the standard Christian Bible order. The Jewish Bible order is the one that clues in on parallels to other chapters in Isaiah, based on the order of 39 books selected for the "blessed Septuagint" version. The remaining 27 books are from the New Testament side and start at Isaiah chapter 40 and parallels the New Testament side, which also starts with Matthew. Forget dates...

the dates of when they were written don't matter in this situation. It's how they were processed to be put into the order we see them now, and how any of that particular order can parallel chapters in Isaiah that remains the mystery. THAT is the *point*...

Have you forgotten the authors of the NT WERE Jewish- except Paul. The OT WAS their resources and no you can not forget dates. Those are important too. Paul wrote something that gave Mark and idea to expand on and after Mark expanded on it, Matthew wasn't satified, so he wrote his version based on Mark, the OT, and the Hebrew litergical calendar. Isaiah obviously came before Matthew, therefore it should be obvious that Matthew borrowed from the book of Isaiah.

[Alisa]

It does if you are thinking rationally and yes, if you want to put it that way, a bunch of mad-minded scribes did. THAT is what scribes do. They pour over the books sometimes every single page and in this case, whoever wrote Matthew (we don't know who really wrote it) did EXACTLY that and Mark's account too. It takes REASON to think about all of this rationally. BTW, the authors of the Gospels were not writing for Christians at the time, but rather Jews or Jews-Christians. The authors were Jews.
*right*... and this is where I laugh... :rolleyes:

In other words, you're saying what they did is--
It's a conspiracy!!
BTW, the authors of the Gospels were not writing for Christians at the time, but rather Jews or Jews-Christians. The authors were Jews.
the "Jews" were conspiring against the entire world... :rolleyes:
sorry, I still don't believe that.
(please note - I've always believed it's not wise to add fuel to the fires as in... yeah, one more reason to eliminate the sources of the conspiracy issues and let those who hate the Jews have more incentive for fulfilling their desire of annihilating them...!) :eek2:


umm, actually, Septuagint-wise ... I'm referring to the other time period in history where the excess books (apocryphal / gnostics, etc.) got weeded out from the ALL of the gospels and other selected "Holy" OT/NT books...
From what I understand, it was a combination group of scholars both Christian historians and Jewish scribes who got together up thru into the 16th century (A.D./C.E) and put the Septuagint version together -- because the Jews wouldn't touch the Christian half, so it had to come from either Catholic or Protestant scholars studying in that area.

goodnite. I'm missing my Tv shows... :D

[Mriana]

I didn't say anything about a conspiracy.

The 16th century would be the 1500s. That's awfully late to be picking and choosing books. No, what I was referring to happened earlier than that. It was in the 500s, that they got together and compiled the books of the NT. Let me find the exact date. It was in the 1500s that the Bible was translated from Latin to other languages.

[Alisa]

...The 16th century would be the 1500s. That's awfully late to be picking and choosing books. No, what I was referring to happened earlier than that. It was in the 500s, that they got together and compiled the books of the NT. Let me find the exact date...
try the below link for date-finding... it might narrow the field. I'm not sure exactly who finally declared *what* and when, which is why I said it might reach into the 1500's... and why I didn't put an absolute official "blessed" date on any of these things... also try to keep in mind of the current order of books as they appear in the 21st century -- using the NIV as a guideline for book listing order, if you need to refer to a definite order (the NIV is the version order that I originally used to support the Isaiah chapter to entire Bible books theory).

If Luther changed the order of the books, that's an important clue, right there. His reasons are given in the reference noted below, unless someone can find a more accurate reason, behind his picking and choosing... :)

posted on wikipedia's web site...
"Apocrypha" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_apocrypha)

The Luther Bible

Martin Luther translated the Bible into German during the early part of the 16th century, first releasing a complete Bible in 1534. His Bible was the first major edition to have a separate section called Apocrypha. Books and portions of books not found in the Hebrew Tanakh were moved out of the body of the Old Testament to this section. The books 1 and 2 Esdras were omitted entirely[3]. Luther placed these books between the Old and New Testaments. For this reason, these works are sometimes known as inter-testamental books. Many twentieth century editions of the Luther Bible omit the Apocrypha section.

Luther also believed four books of the New Testament to be apocryphal: the Epistle to the Hebrews, the Epistles of James and Jude, and the Revelation to John. He did not put them in a separate section, but he did relegate them to the end of the New Testament.

Council of Jamnia in AD 92, Jews did not have a single unified canon of Scripture. Some ancient Jewish sects (including the Essenes, as evidenced in the Dead Sea scrolls) included as Scripture much that modern Jews consider non-canonical. The Council explicitly excluded certain books for reasons that included their late composition or because they were not written in Hebrew (although some parts of the Hebrew Bible or Tanakh itself are in biblical Aramaic). The word Apocrypha means hidden writing, and it was given to such books by the Jews to distinguish them from the books which they accepted as canonical.

Gentiles continued to use Greek translations made in the period from the third century to the first century BC, which a legend ascribes to a school in Alexandria, Egypt. These works, which collectively became known as the Septuagint, included several that were rejected at Jamnia.
...
Since there was no fixed canon even among Jews until the Council of Jamnia (c.70-90 AD), it is not surprising that, historically, there have been hesitations among Christians, especially in the early centuries, about which Old Testament books to consider canonical. St Jerome explicitly denied the canonical character of any Old Testament book not included in the Hebrew Bible; but later, in his Preface to the Book of Tobit (PL 29, 24-25), stated that he translated the deuterocanonical books into Latin as a concession to the authority of the bishops; and in 402 AD declared he had not really denied the inspiration of these books, but had only given the opinion of the Jews (Apol. contra Ruf. 11, 33. PL 23, 476).

In view of that controversy, a list of canonical books (with the deuterocanonical books included) was drawn up at councils in Africa and approved by the Pope of the time. This was generally accepted in the West, while in the East, particularly in Syria, general agreement was reached only in the seventh century. Within the Roman Catholic Church, individual leaders and scholars, even at a later date, sometimes expressed contrary views, but the matter was definitively settled in 1546, when the Council of Trent, reacting to the views of the Protestant Reformers, declared that it accepted all the books of the Old and New Testaments with equal feelings of piety and reverence, and named them in accordance with the list of the fifth-century African councils. The First Vatican Council reaffirmed this declaration.

Protestant views

Martin Luther rejected the books that do not appear in the Jewish Tanakh, partly because of the stress the Reformers laid on translating from the original text, and partly because some passages contradicted his views, especially where 2 Maccabees speaks, by implication, of purgatory: "It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins." (12:46).

Luther also considered the Epistle of James apocryphal, doubting authorship by any of the several New Testament figures named James, and also because the epistle contains a statement that seemingly contradicts Luther's teachings (drawn from other passages in the New Testament, eg Eph. 2:8-9) of Salvation by faith alone: "Faith without works is dead" (James 2:26). His edition of the Bible relegated this and three other books (Epistle to the Hebrews, the Epistle of Jude and the Revelation), to an appendix. Later Lutherans included these books with the Protestant Canon in their New Testament, but placed them after those books. Thus, the books of the Lutheran New Testament (at least in German) are ordered somewhat differently than other Protestant Bibles.

Protestants call the biblical books that are not in Luther's canon apocrypha. Luther (and the Anglican Church) regarded them as useful for edification, but not to be relied upon for doctrine, while Calvin and in general his followers attached no value to them beyond that of any other human writing, and objected to any use of them in church.
see...? I *am* keeping an open mind... just don't have all the details unscrambled. ;)

[Mriana]

Wikipedia is not the best source, but so far it seems to be consitant with: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/a/canon.html As for the Isaiah thing, all the scholarly sources I have say that Matthew copied, thus why it is so similar.

OK here is what I was thinking of when I said something about 500 C.E.: Council of Nicea, which is wrong for the compilation of the N.T., as well as the date that was stuck in my head (not the source I was wanting, but my comp is acting funky and may have to do a deep virus scan tonight, instead of a regular one :( ): http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11044a.htm

[Alisa]

it's been said that "patience is a virtue"...
old sayings are sometimes fun to think about. :)


..my comp is acting funky and may have to do a deep virus scan tonight, instead of a regular one :(
sorry about your computer... twasn't me... honest! just because "Dresden" (on Sci-Fi channel) and "Blood Ties" (on Lifetime) both did voodoo themed eps, twasn't any connections there to me. Honest!
oh gosh, one of these days, I'll have to share about my soul-mate creation MD story (btw, that's the character's initials.. someone even Dot might love to sink her teeth into)...
he's someone I (fictionally) created, and put on hiatus until I can resolve a few details out every night (and day!), whenever I think about it. ;)
*sigh*


...As for the Isaiah thing...
keep going...

BUT *that* is EXACTLY the point, tho! -- how could a bunch of books randomly written at different time periods all thruout a historical timeline of probably over a 2,000 year time span (or more), mysteriously follow the EXACT order of chapters in Isaiah per each order of book in the pattern of the "blessed Septuagint" version that it is sold on shelves today???

follow my point -- that it couldn't be some crazy persons who compiled these things, suddenly got a bright idea to see if there WAS a connection to each book in the order of Isaiah and put them together in that order... It Can't make sense, not under rational *human* terms. (as Spock would say - "that's illogical!") :p

Otherwise, what you're saying is that hundreds of years ago (say 1500's A.D./C.E. for some of these various decisions), a bunch of mad-minded scribes decided to play a joke on the rest of us thruout history, and *painstakingly* poured over every page of every word ever written, prayed over them, and decided to compile those that matched up to a particular book, Isaiah, and reorganize the rest of the remaining order of books for the Christian (NEW Testament) half of the Bible, by an amazing coincidence of verses matching up in some form or another...

Coincidence or not -- that's the order. I even checked it both ways for the OLD Testament half in the "Holy" Jewish Bible order vs the standard Christian Bible order. The Jewish Bible order is the one that clues in on parallels to other chapters in Isaiah, based on the order of 39 books selected for the "blessed Septuagint" version. The remaining 27 books are from the New Testament side and start at Isaiah chapter 40 and parallels the New Testament side, which also starts with Matthew. Forget dates...

the dates of when they were written don't matter in this situation. It's how they were processed to be put into the order we see them now, and how any of that particular order can parallel chapters in Isaiah that remains the mystery. THAT is the *point*...

...As for the Isaiah thing, all the scholarly sources I have say that Matthew copied, thus why it is so similar.
somehow, I don't believe we're on the same wavelength nor "study" page here (and I'm not referring to web links, but do thank you for the wiki comment and columbia.edu reference... I was using real books on our library home shelf, and couldn't find it fast enough, so I went the wiki route...).
i'm guessing you're chi is definitely not completely in sync with mine at the moment (or we'd be agreeing again -- *grin*!)...
but that's okay -- my equilibrium goes out of kilter, too... :(

Anyway, one more time-- (and if anyone else can write a reasonable explanation --other than what has already been printed above-- that would be helpful, too!)

I'm not talking about CONTENTs of what is in the book of Matthew vs. Mark, or any of the other gospels. So who copied *what* from whom doesn't matter in this very specific and simple question.
I'm NOT talking about *when* the books were written, either or who wrote *what* in what order.

I *am* talking (perhaps now *asking*??) about how did the book of Matthew end up in front of Mark in the NIV and so many other standardized Bibles, so it follows the sequence of Isaiah's chapters perfectly in the order of Isaiah's chapter to the "holy" sanctioned, blessed, whatever
selected 66 books of the Bible order theory?

That's what I'm referring to. Ignore everything else, and try to focus on that. That is the key element here. Nothing else matters. If you can find a reasonable answer to that, then maybe the question will be "logically" answered.
Otherwise, this entire search is futile. :eyeroll:

here's the refresher quote
Originally posted by Alisa (http://bbs.roddenberry.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=61343#post61343):

What's more amazing about that, is that according to the parallel Septuagint book to Isaiah chapter theory -- randomly near the middle of Isaiah's book is Isaiah 40:3. If the book of Matthew in Septuagint order is actually the 40th book of the Bible, does such a *theory* hold true? actually, it does, and I found out without ordering the study list for myself. Isaiah 40:3 has a parallel representative also written within the 40th book of the Septuagint Bible - it's a reinforcement passage written (completely randomly??) into the (40th Septuagint version) book of Matthew.

NOTE: (40th book in Bible=Matthew) Matthew 3:3 reinforces references made previously in Isaiah 40:3...!!
Matt.3:1) In those days John the Baptist came...
Matt.3:3) "A voice of one calling in the the desert,
'Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.'"

Isaiah 40:3) A voice of one calling:
"In the desert prepare the way for the Lord;
make stright in the wilderness a highway for our God.

(both passages are from the NIV Bible)
if anyone else can answer the question, please do... it's most appreciated.
thanks!!

[Mriana]

somehow, I don't believe we're on the same wavelength nor "study" page here (and I'm not referring to web links, but do thank you for the wiki comment and columbia.edu reference... I was using real books on our library home shelf, and couldn't find it fast enough, so I went the wiki route...).
i'm guessing you're chi is definitely not completely in sync with mine at the moment (or we'd be agreeing again -- *grin*!)...
but that's okay -- my equilibrium goes out of kilter, too... :(

The info I gave you about Gospel was not from any website, but books AND real human beings who are scholars. We are probably sync because you maybe looking for a certain answer, which you might not find.



I *am* talking (perhaps now *asking*??) about how did the book of Matthew end up in front of Mark in the NIV and so many other standardized Bibles, so it follows the sequence of Isaiah's chapters perfectly in the order of Isaiah's chapter to the "holy" sanctioned, blessed, whatever
selected 66 books of the Bible order theory?

OH! Some scribe who poored over them day and night and Sunday, and then suggested that that is he order they should be in.

BTW, as for my comp acting funky, I know it wasn't you. I managed to get hijacked or something. :mad: Did a deep virus scan and it insisted I had no viruses and yes it's updated. I don't get it. Checking spyware/malware now.

[Kestra]

well, if Kes' Merkabah is the same thing as we've been discussing earlier, it's just phrased and understood (envisioned as) slightly differently -- and depending on how strongly she wants that microchip, depends on whether or not we'll be on the same Merkabah or not... remember the TNG epi: "Transfigurations" where Enterpirse rescued the mysterious man. and he displayed abilities to heal etc. and later we found out he was being hunted by his own ppl as they considered him and others like him to be dangerous. in the end he transformed into a Being of Light. he turned out to be a Merkabah. that's part of what i mean by merkabah. their ships are also Light.

maybe it (the idea of the {Christian understanding of} *Rapture*) was meant as a one time in history type of phrase and not completely instantaneously... as in cloaked shuttles waiting to take those waiting into the other dimension. Sort of on a domino effect transportation system... :D it'll be more of a transformation, than a transportation system.
BUT *that* is EXACTLY the point, tho! -- how could a bunch of books randomly written at different time periods all thruout a historical timeline of probably over a 2,000 year time span (or more), mysteriously follow the EXACT order of chapters in Isaiah per each order of book in the pattern of the "blessed Septuagint" version that it is sold on shelves today??? plagiarism?



Otherwise, what you're saying is that hundreds of years ago (say 1500's A.D./C.E. for some of these various decisions), a bunch of mad-minded scribes decided to play a joke on the rest of us thruout history,

you’re half-right, they got together to create a ‘single’ religion in order to unite the ppl and bring order to what they saw as chaos of many beliefs.

[Alisa]

remember the TNG epi: "Transfigurations" where Enterpirse rescued the mysterious man. and he displayed abilities to heal etc. and later we found out he was being hunted by his own ppl as they considered him and others like him to be dangerous. in the end he transformed into a Being of Light. he turned out to be a Merkabah. that's part of what i mean by merkabah. their ships are also Light.
sort of remember... if the "Merkabah" is what will be transporting its chosen members, earth will not have the technology to see thru the "Merkabah's" cloak (if their is such a device). One moment it's here, the next it's gone! different dimension. ;)


BUT *that* is EXACTLY the point, tho! -- how could a bunch of books randomly written at different time periods all thruout a historical timeline of probably over a 2,000 year time span (or more), mysteriously follow the EXACT order of chapters in Isaiah per each order of book in the pattern of the "blessed Septuagint" version that it is sold on shelves today???

plagiarism?
no... that's not what I meant, either. The NT books were written after Isaiah.
According to Mriana's research, Mark was written BEFORE Matthew.
Today's order of the Bible (for example, NIV edition) has Matthew placed before the book of Mark (Mark comes after Matthew).

Isaiah has 66 chapters.
The Bible without the "Apocrypha" books (extra writings inserted into both OLD/NEW halves of the Bible), has 66 books.
Isaiah = contains 66 chapters (one single book out of 65 others).
The Bible = contains 66 separate Books compiled under one joining cover/binder.

Matthew = 40th book of Bible in current 21st century order.
Mark = 41st book of Bible in current 21st century order.

It wouldn't matter if plagiarism was the issue, because then traditionally, Mark would naturally in the timeline come before Matthew and they'd switch places

Mark = 40th book of Bible (in the historical timeline).
Matthew = 41st book of Bible (in the historical timeline).

However, the books are not set up that way. They got switched somehow.
Instead Matthew is the
(40th book in Bible=Matthew) and Matthew 3:3 directly parallels the words written in Isaiah 40:3.

Isaiah = 40th chapter (contains similar verses to Matthew 3:3)
Matthew = 40th book of Bible in current 21st century order.

That particular occurrence (by chapter order // to actual book in order) would not exist that way if Mark was placed before Matthew, in chronological date order, or whatever.

(Therefore,) It's illogical to say Isaiah copied off of Matthew or Mark, since Isaiah lived hundreds of years before Jesus' apostles/writers of NT books.
It's also illogical to say Matthew *coincidently* would become the 40th book in Bible order, when the books were not written in that specific timeline order to begin with.
there's got to be another reason / explanation. (Twilight Zone!! music...) :D

the dates of when they were written don't matter in this situation. It's how they were processed to be put into the order we see them now, and how any of that particular order can parallel chapters in Isaiah that remains the mystery. THAT is the *point*...

OH! Some scribe who poored over them day and night and Sunday, and then suggested that that is he order they should be in.
that's closer... but borders on conspiracy line mode, if the same study was done when the books were set up into their current sequencial order. Otherwise, it was a completely *random* action, and just *happens* to fall into a parallel study of (Isaiah) chapter to actual whole book composite of 66 different books chosen at random, and placed at random...

it's sort of like throwing the dice, and getting snake eyes 66 times in a row without fail...
either the dice are fixed, or something else caused that particular phenomena to occur.

That's what I'm talking about... If science is required to explain it, then what are the "odds" on this situation happening over hundreds of years of history? That's like grandma buying only one lottery ticket in her entire life -- picking the $370 million mega-millions winning lottery ticket from buying only one ticket with all of the winning numbers (matching exactly) only one time ever in history.
:)

[Mriana]

it'll be more of a transformation, than a transportation system.

That is what the Gnostics say and that the transformation has already happened. It is said that the old world died and a new world was transformed in it's place. Thus, what people call the Rapture and Second Coming has already past- according to the Gnostics that is.

no... that's not what I meant, either. The NT books were written after Isaiah.
According to Mriana's research, Mark was written BEFORE Matthew.
Today's order of the Bible (for example, NIV edition) has Matthew placed before the book of Mark (Mark comes after Matthew).

Yes, that is correct, Mark was written BEFORE Matthew.

It wouldn't matter if plagiarism was the issue, because then traditionally, Mark would naturally in the timeline come before Matthew and they'd switch places

Mark = 40th book of Bible (in the historical timeline).
Matthew = 41st book of Bible (in the historical timeline).

However, the books are not set up that way. They got switched somehow.
Instead Matthew is the
(40th book in Bible=Matthew) and Matthew 3:3 directly parallels the words written in Isaiah 40:3.

My guess is Matthew had to tie it into the Hebrew traditions so he had to borrow from Isaiah. I looked it up and to me it is obvious that Matthew was borrowing to tie his writing together with the OT. In the RSV it is not word for word the same, but the jest of it is the same which suggests Matthew borrowed from Isaiah.

Isaiah = 40th chapter (contains similar verses to Matthew 3:3)
Matthew = 40th book of Bible in current 21st century order.

That particular occurrence (by chapter order // to actual book in order) would not exist that way if Mark was placed before Matthew, in chronological date order, or whatever.

I don't know, I think because the scribes wanted it to parallel the OT, it would seem reasonable for the books to be in that order. However, Mark borrowed a lot from Paul. Mark took the idea of a spiritual resurrection and expanded upon it. Mark is also the shortest of the four. Back then, there was no such thing as Plagarism laws or copyrights. Even Elvis stoled Big Mama Thorton's "Ain't Nothin' But Hound Dog." He got rich and she died penniless. There was nothing she could do about it, either.

(Therefore,) It's illogical to say Isaiah copied off of Matthew or Mark, since Isaiah lived hundreds of years before Jesus' apostles/writers of NT books.
It's also illogical to say Matthew *coincidently* would become the 40th book in Bible order, when the books were not written in that specific timeline order to begin with.
there's got to be another reason / explanation. (Twilight Zone!! music...) :D

I never said Isaiah copied off of Matthew and Mark. I said Matthew copied from Isaiah. Actually, it's not illogical if you understan how Mark really came first in the concerning the order they were written.


that's closer... but borders on conspiracy line mode, if the same study was done when the books were set up into their current sequencial order. Otherwise, it was a completely *random* action, and just *happens* to fall into a parallel study of (Isaiah) chapter to actual whole book composite of 66 different books chosen at random, and placed at random...

No, the order in which the books were written is not conspiracy, but rather truth. See the more you do a real examination and study of them, the more you see the contradictions and other things. Why do you think that so many Religious scholars are Atheists and Agnostics? I'm not including Evangelical Fundamental preachers in that group.

That's what I'm talking about... If science is required to explain it, then what are the "odds" on this situation happening over hundreds of years of history? That's like grandma buying only one lottery ticket in her entire life -- picking the $370 million mega-millions winning lottery ticket from buying only one ticket with all of the winning numbers (matching exactly) only one time ever in history.
:)

It did. The story of Jesus is a lot like Zeus and other mythological man/gods. The thing is there is a lot of historical errors in the Bible too. I can't explain them very well, but that one link will give you a better explaination.

That and I really do hope that Bible Geek comes here and helps out with this question. He can do a far far far better job of explaining all this than I can. He has a lot more knowledge about it than I do, that is for sure.

[Alisa]

My guess is Matthew had to tie it into the Hebrew traditions so he had to borrow from Isaiah. I looked it up and to me it is obvious that Matthew was borrowing to tie his writing together with the OT. In the RSV it is not word for word the same, but the jest of it is the same which suggests Matthew borrowed from Isaiah.
All of the Gospels quoted from the Old Testament books. Jesus frequently quoted the scriptures on purpose - for teaching those who didn't understand - including those who "claimed" to know the scriptures better than the common folk. :rolleyes:

Sometimes you're right on... and nail it.
Other times... I sense there's an imaginary brick wall that is being slammed into.

I never said Isaiah copied off of Matthew and Mark.
I didn't say "you did" say that. you're taking this too personally -- as a MISSION quest.
I'm guessing you're trying to get so into this ahead of time, before seeing the whole scene in its entirely before finishing seeing the ultimate end. And I wasn't targeting *you* (Mriana) specifically for the logic comments I wrote. I wrote them as a general WHOLE (involving everyone who ever might think of or argue against them, and shared it from an overall POV).



No, the order in which the books were written is not conspiracy, but rather truth.
That's what's been being said all along.
the *truth* -- really? I didn't notice.... (I'm being fecitious and getting hungry...)
for the umpteenth time (i am NOW saying this out Loud)... I *g-i-v-e* up.
About Five times I've said the (exact) same thing. How much *clearer* does it need to get?
I wrote using a scientific principle... that's still not helping.
I not doing it again.
I'm hungry.. (need supper..)

The thing is there is a lot of historical errors in the Bible too. I can't explain them very well, but that one link will give you a better explaination.
this is where we part (ideaologies?)... you're ideas and links are very *strange* to me... I learned a different way, and everything makes sense there... and no amount of web pages, or etc., are going to convince me otherwise... sorry.

That and I really do hope that Bible Geek comes here and helps out with this question. He can do a far far far better job of explaining all this than I can. He has a lot more knowledge about it than I do, that is for sure.
yes.
...because if he can't actually understand what I wrote in the first place, then I'm going to go away to the TV forums to hide out... :D
...and paws off of my *vamp* (MD creation)...!! He's a Christian (at heart)... :p
this is good testing ground for the strength of his *character* study, and who or what he's up against... :eek2:

[Mriana]

Well... He's an Episcopalian, but he is also a Humanist. (Or a Humanist who attends the Episcopal Church) In other words, he's a lot like me, except he loves the Bible. I can't say I love it, but there is obviously a pattern here with so many Humanists in the Episcopal church. He also works with the (Yea! My bookmarks are back to normal! Hijackers be damned! :LOL: ) Council for Secular Humanism and Atheist Alliance International. Here you can get all the info and more on him here, including his personal website: http://www.freethoughtmedia.com/RobertMPrice.ftm He is a fascinating man, who is an amazing scholar of the Bible and he REALLY tells it like it is. He won't BS you.

Alisa, trust me, you're no match for him and IF he accepts my invite, then you will see what I mean. The man gets Atheists, Skeptics, Humanists, Rationalist, and Christians all at the same time to listen to him and ask him questions about the Bible. So, he has something going for him. If he does as well in writing as he does in spoken words, you'll hopefully be impressed too. I was and I don't get impressed very easily by people who talk about the Bible.

[Alisa]

finally, (took me long enough to reply to this)
I don't know, I think because the scribes wanted it to parallel the OT, it would seem reasonable for the books to be in that order.
I don't think the ancient Jewish scribes poured over the texts and thought
"Wow! wouldn't it be cool if we arranged the books in the same order to match Isaiah's 66 chapters."
Do you realize the magnitude of such a task?? I have problems sorting thru my own tasks that are much more simplified than that...!

For one thing... one debate claims from everything else I've been hearing about, the Bible doesn't match up consistently to any of the other books -- so why would Isaiah's book be unique and fit perfectly into the order of the entire OT & NT, especially when the NT wasn't even written yet?? To me, that's folly thinking, and a waste of time.

What would it gain, otherwise, except a lot of arguing?

for another thing... who'd want to bother taking that sort of painstaking time out to sort the rest of the Biblical books so that they'd match up...? Luther put several of the NT books at the end, because
Luther also considered the Epistle of James apocryphal, doubting authorship by any of the several New Testament figures named James, and also because the epistle contains a statement that seemingly contradicts Luther's teachings (drawn from other passages in the New Testament, eg Eph. 2:8-9) of Salvation by faith alone: "Faith without works is dead" (James 2:26). His edition of the Bible relegated this and three other books (Epistle to the Hebrews, the Epistle of Jude and the Revelation), to an appendix. Later Lutherans included these books with the Protestant Canon in their New Testament, but placed them after those books. Thus, the books of the Lutheran New Testament (at least in German) are ordered somewhat differently than other Protestant Bibles.
so, apparently, those same mentioned books were rearranged into a different order AFTER Luther, as well. hmmmm...

The order of arrangement (of individual booklets within the Bible that) we have today is a mirror image of Isaiah in the same order Isaiah's chapters flow. Either I'm insane for seeing the parallel mirror/mirror image, or a madman had to make certain these books would be placed into that order, or there's another force at work.
(okay, there was a Star Trek reference in that... Mirror/Mirror image.) :)

What is so difficult to understand in that? To me, it's so simple, a child could understand it.
That's what I'm not understanding -- what part of this isn't clear enough to grasp? It's not *that* difficult of a puzzle (and my mom and I were pretty good at designing giant maze puzzles). so, when someone else ingeniously designs something of Biblical magnitude, I stand in awwww of it. Plain and simple.

Well... He's an Episcopalian, but he is also a Humanist. (Or a Humanist who attends the Episcopal Church) In other words, he's a lot like me, except he loves the Bible.
good thing I *knew* who you were talking about. The way my post reads, it ends with me discussing about my fictional vamp *character* who has a Christian heart, and without any introductions, you wrote

Well... He's an Episcopalian, but he is also a Humanist...
no, actually, he's a converted Catholic... (the person I was referring to before I went off to make din-din..)
that's what I meant when we are not being too careful of how these postings are being read sometimes, and consecutive thoughts (generic *you*) you thought were connected really aren't...! :eek2:
if you're not thoroughly confused after reading that, well, I just don't know what to say... the timing and phrasing was kind of cute. :p

Alisa, trust me, you're no match for him and IF he accepts my invite, then you will see what I mean. The man gets Atheists, Skeptics, Humanists, Rationalist, and Christians all at the same time to listen to him and ask him questions about the Bible. So, he has something going for him. If he does as well in writing as he does in spoken words, you'll hopefully be impressed too. I was and I don't get impressed very easily by people who talk about the Bible.
my dad taught me that it doesn't matter how many intellectual credentials a person has after their name, etc.. Afterall, my 16 years of school was nothing in his eyes, and he was a computer specialist technician. He was as cold as ice on most days... until the day he finally accepted me as his daughter - the day before he died. It's what's in the heart that makes the difference. Besides, I'm not here to match wits with anyone, especially when most people here speak of a different caliber level scientifically than me. I'm just here to share in the basics, and hopefully have healthy fun in those *off* moments... ;)

I may have to live side by side with practical minded folks, who find science and instruction manuals intriguing reading... I've seen the other side that science cannot comprehend. It's not humanism or rationalization, but it might be interdimensional by scientific terminology, if it *had* to be explained in some tangible form. There is no better explanation than that. I've learned -- get a hotline to God... speak what's on your heart... he'll listen ...and answer in his ways and timing. Works every time, and on a daily basis too! bypass the humans, and go straight to the Persona in charge! It's amazing -- it really works. Life is Less stressful that way too -- since there's no "red tape" and giant lines of people and formulas to sit thru. But that processing of data is probably over many people's heads in more ways than one. :rolleyes:

[Mriana]

I don't think the ancient Jewish scribes poured over the texts and thought

Alisa, who says they didn't if they translated the OT from Hebrew to Greek?

no, actually, he's a converted Catholic... (the person I was referring to before I went off to make din-din..)

The man I'm referring to professes himself to being a Humanist who attends the Episcopal Church and loves the Bible (why I don't know :LOL: I find a lot of it boring, but he makes it interesting). He has never said anything about ever being Catholic, as far as I know.

my dad taught me that it doesn't matter how many intellectual credentials a person has after their name, etc.. Afterall, my 16 years of school was nothing in his eyes, and he was a computer specialist technician.

An education should be VERY important. One can't get anywhere in this world without one. Unless he was anti-intellectual or was sexist or both, I can't understand why it didn't matter to him. I personally appreciate people with an education esp if they use their education. To me it does matter how much education you have and it does matter how much you seek on your own too. Knowledge is power.

Life is Less stressful that way too -- since there's no "red tape" and giant lines of people and formulas to sit thru. But that processing of data is probably over many people's heads in more ways than one. :rolleyes:

I'm glad you find it less stressful. I've always found dogma and alike extremely stressful, esp when around those who have fallen into the trap of dogmatics. What formulas? What processing data? There is none in that system and quite honestly if you don't do anything, nothing gets done. So the human is VERY important. When was the last time you prayed for something oh say like a job or food on the table? Did you get the job without getting off your butt and doing something? Probably not. Did you get food on the table without going to the store? Probably not. Did money fall from the sky when you asked for money? Of course not, you had to work for it like everyone else, unless you got it as a gift from someone and even they worked for it. God isn't going to send you your daily bread on a silver platter. You have do to something for yourself or it won't get done. Whoever got money sitting on their butt doing nothing, except praying? Monks and alike don't really count since they live off the Church and people's tithings, but even they have to go out and till the garden too.

If someone is attacking or abusing you, are you going to sit down and pray? Good luck if you survive the attack or abuse by doing that. If you want to survive, you have to do something about the attacker/abuser (run, defend yourself, call for help, something) or no one will do anything for you and nothing will get done about it. With or without prayer, you still have to do something for yourself to get anything done. Prayer can help one psychologically, but as Mark Twain said, "It is best to read the weather forecast before we pray for rain."

[Alisa]

He has never said anything about ever being Catholic, as far as I know.
I think you missed something in the translation there... like the joke in the middle...
I wasn't talking about your friend - but how the two thoughts, yours and mine, merged and it LOOKed as if we were referring to the same person.

An education should be VERY important.
yes, but (generic *you*) not when it goes to your head (ego-wise).


An education should be VERY important.To me it does matter how much education you have and it does matter how much you seek on your own too. Knowledge is power.
this I couldn't let wait all night. I had to respond. Anyone can have credentials and degrees from the ceiling to the floor, and if you lack *common sense* or no sense at all, all that knowledge ain't going very far in life, itself.

I speak from experience there. I know of 2 persons - one is a teacher (thinks of himself as a wiz know-it-all), yet lacks basic *common sense*. I can't go into what he did, because he may be reading this... ;)
However, his super-genius son is just like dad. Brilliant degree behind him with schooling and high honor grades... but NO *common sense*. Like father, like son.

My dad didn't have the education and was smarter than the 2 geniuses mentioned above and put together. My dad wrote technical programs and troubleshooted computer systems before PC's ever came into existence (he worked on the giant room sized ones). He was brilliant in his work, but lived in his work too - and that's where he fell short, with his family. At least he had *some* common sense the rest of us could admire. I can't say that about the other 2 wizards of walking encyclopedia knowledge.
So if you don't have or know how to properly balance out ALL that genius knowledge - it don't add up to a hill of beans (without passing chronic gas), IMHO. :rolleyes:

I may have to live side by side with practical minded folks, who find science and instruction manuals intriguing reading... I've seen the other side that science cannot comprehend. It's not humanism or rationalization, but it might be interdimensional by scientific terminology, if it *had* to be explained in some tangible form. There is no better explanation than that. I've learned -- get a hotline to God... speak what's on your heart... he'll listen ...and answer in his ways and timing. Works every time, and on a daily basis too! bypass the humans, and go straight to the Persona in charge! It's amazing -- it really works. Life is Less stressful that way too -- since there's no "red tape" and giant lines of people and formulas to sit thru. But that processing of data is probably over many people's heads in more ways than one. :rolleyes:

I'm glad you find it less stressful. I've always found dogma and alike extremely stressful, esp when around those who have fallen into the trap of dogmatics.
let me clarify One item... reading both 1 & 2 Chronicles and 1 & 2 Kings had me falling asleep in parts... I got thru it via the (NIV) Bible on tape. It makes a difference, and especially makes the day go faster while stuffing envelopes all day (office work). :p

I've learned -- get a hotline to God... speak what's on your heart... he'll listen ...and answer in his ways and timing. Works every time, and on a daily basis too! bypass the humans, and go straight to the Persona in charge! It's amazing -- it really works. Life is Less stressful that way too -- since there's no "red tape" and giant lines of people and formulas to sit thru. But that processing of data is probably over many people's heads in more ways than one. :rolleyes:

What formulas? What processing data?
the scientific one that declares there is no God who answers *prayer*. That one. The one that strips mankind being made in the image of "God" and takes away "God's" authority over situations beyond control.

Yes, ever sit there waiting for a phone call for a job?? On the day the call came, the company was sold to another buyer. So, you get hired anyway by the new guys. Then find out several years later... the company is going under again - Oooops! deja vu! No retirement fund in the kitty. Imagine going thru similar situations like that - having the rug pulled out from under you several times over... "Okay Lord, now what?"

That's what my family's life has been like.
Living week to week by one paycheck, and praying both ends meet, before the pennies run out too. God isn't a crutch. He's been our strength and comfort. Life gets lonely when no one wants to hear that sort of stuff... they think your King Midas, but everything you touch turns to lead and sinks thru the quicksand. That's a great life to behold. I know of too many other people who live that way everyday, and feel they have no hope for the next week ahead.

When was the last time you prayed for something oh say like a job or food on the table? Did you get the job without getting off your butt and doing something? Probably not. Did you get food on the table without going to the store? Probably not. Did money fall from the sky when you asked for money? Of course not
funny you should ask (please see my comments above your quote)...
but is everything in life that is most valuable simply monetary connected to you?
Everything is physical - survival of the fittest, and pity the poor smucks stuck in their own miseries, caused by circumstances beyond their own control.
Is that what makes life (truly) *worth* living?


There's one more item... a Christian rescued me from despair. He brought hope back into my life. I knew too much of the Bible, too much about Christian living, and was willing to toss it all into hell - literally. I had a job, a roof over my head, but nothing to *really* live for except paying more bills. (TOLD yah I was a depressing person...!) :p
However, when you meet someone who can restore *meaning* and hope into your life, at a time when nobody else cares, and nobody wants to listen, and this person goes the extra mile to give you back years (figuratively) in ways you couldn't imagine before, then I'd say that's a dynamic person of compassion. But if someone comes by and tears down all that you've ever believed in -- the Bible, and everything you've ever held dear in life, why bother going on? There's nothing left to behold.

Sure nature looks beautiful... but nature ain't the one paying your bills. I had nothing left to enjoy. Even my family - tho close, they didn't understand my *heart*... people in the Church only cared if you showed up and joined in singing and "praising" with them. They didn't want to hear what nagged at your heart. They lived in their own happy-go-lucky world.
and that's probably why so many suicides happen on a daily basis.

I never expected it, but hoped for someone... and a wonderful guy named Ron came into my life. This man has the heart of "God".
If I have to confess this, I am only writing any of this by the sheer *grace* of God. I would have been dead long ago, if it weren't for this super special someone to enter my life... I'm not talking about my husband. Meeting Ron came during a time when my marriage was hitting troubled waters... and I only met him by radio (and he and his family had no idea I was on the other end of their million miles of radio connections). It was quite unusual circumstances, too. I thought someone was playing a joke on the radio, and slipped a mickey into the stations programming. but no -- the program was genuine. He was teaching kids on the radio, and they were all teaching me how to *really* live... Even better, I eventually met him and his wife (and kids) later, and quite unexpectedly, too. He was only an hour away (lived an hour away from us!)... I could have listened to him in his own Church... only a hop-skip and jump away from where we had been going, too.

He also helped my sister's family rise out of the pits of their despaired doom and gloom from the rotten world their dad put them all thru. He walked out to have an affair - leaving his wife without any money, no job, no incoming income, and 2 little ones to go thru six more years of public schooling without dad bothering to help them out one bit. Our mom helped bail her out financially, until she could wobble on her own 2 feet. Our mom put my niece thru college, after our mom died... But when the world first came crashing down on my sister when her rotten husband abandoned all of them, Ron gave me the emotional and spiritual tools to help inspire my sister to continue going on... gave her kids dynamic, and energizing (Christian) music to enjoy, instead of moping around the misery route, because their dad just didn't care. He hated God, resented his own family, hated life and hated himself, whether he realized it or not. His heart actually died emotionally years before when he suffered a massive stroke. He spent the remaining years after trying to fill the voids, but never found true peace or joy, even when he thought he reached that magic plateau masked by wallowing in alcoholism. He also died young from "living" it up his way. I hate to say he got what he wanted, but he did - a short and basically unhappy life, for the most part. I don't think he ever did find true joy.

So, when someone else can come forward, and outsparkle Ron - and the millions of other souls Ron has helped rescue and restored hope into their hearts (parents too), then I'd say that person is super special. But for now, there is only one Ron and Only one Charles (Chuck), my other favorite teacher. Yeah, I lived for years listening to Chuck, and he was wonderful... but Ron helped even one step further.

Does your efforts at meeting people find people like that? Or out of the blue, has anyone like that ever found you, and cared enough to go the extra 100 miles, if necessary to help pick up the pieces of your life, and help get you thru day by day, moment by moment - pray with you, until you learned to do it on your own...?
that's the kind of "life" experience I'm talking about here. :)

There's always more than one side to every situation.
If working the entire rest of your life gives you eternal pleasure, more power to yah. If you want friends to come into your life, who won't leave under any circumstance - then you've truly found a rare gift, indeed... or maybe that rare gift actually *found* you. It's all a matter of perspectives.
;)

[Mriana]

Anyone can have credentials and degrees from the ceiling to the floor, and if you lack *common sense* or no sense at all, all that knowledge ain't going very far in life, itself.

I speak from experience there. I know of 2 persons - one is a teacher (thinks of himself as a wiz know-it-all), yet lacks basic *common sense*. I can't go into what he did, because he may be reading this... ;)
However, his super-genius son is just like dad. Brilliant degree behind him with schooling and high honor grades... but NO *common sense*. Like father, like son.

Well, if I had a choice between someone with common sense or an excellent education, I'd pick the brain with an education. But that is a personal perference and something that turns me on in a man. :LOL: So don't mind me while I go flirt with the nerdy brain over there. :D

let me clarify One item... reading both 1 & 2 Chronicles and 1 & 2 Kings had me falling asleep in parts... I got thru it via the (NIV) Bible on tape. It makes a difference, and especially makes the day go faster while stuffing envelopes all day (office work). :p

That's not dogma. That's reading and listening to the Bible.

the scientific one that declares there is no God who answers *prayer*. That one. The one that strips mankind being made in the image of "God" and takes away "God's" authority over situations beyond control.

Science has not declared that there is no god. It can't prove that there is no natural god that is part of the Earth, but a supernatural god, according to science, probably does not exist. Actually, the one you speak of, since humans made that God, God is actually in the image of humans. Now, the one without form, sex, or definition and can only be felt like the wind in nature and has no name for it and is completely and totally a "something" that is numinous, THAT god scientist will acknowledge, even Dawkins has if you listen to him closely.

Yes, ever sit there waiting for a phone call for a job?? On the day the call came, the company was sold to another buyer. So, you get hired anyway by the new guys. Then find out several years later... the company is going under again - Oooops! deja vu! No retirement fund in the kitty. Imagine going thru similar situations like that - having the rug pulled out from under you several times over... "Okay Lord, now what?"

Nope! You still did something to get that job- you went in to fill out the application for starters. So there was no god who did it all by themself. There was a human element.

is everything in life that is most valuable simply monetary connected to you?
Everything is physical - survival of the fittest, and pity the poor smucks stuck in their own miseries, caused by circumstances beyond their own control.
Is that what makes life (truly) *worth* living?[/color]

No, not everything is monetary, but it was a good example that most people understand and I'll get to something that isn't monetary in a moment. What makes life truly worth living is LIVING IT. Taking the good with the bad and appreciating the gift of life.

Sure nature looks beautiful... but nature ain't the one paying your bills.

No you are.

He also helped my sister's family rise out of the pits of their despaired doom and gloom from the rotten world their dad put them all thru. He walked out to have an affair - leaving his wife without any money, no job, no incoming income, and 2 little ones to go thru six more years of public schooling without dad bothering to help them out one bit. Our mom helped bail her out financially, until she could wobble on her own 2 feet. Our mom put my niece thru college, after our mom died... But when the world first came crashing down on my sister when her rotten husband abandoned all of them, Ron gave me the emotional and spiritual tools to help inspire my sister to continue going on... gave her kids dynamic, and energizing (Christian) music to enjoy, instead of moping around the misery route, because their dad just didn't care. He hated God, resented his own family, hated life and hated himself, whether he realized it or not. His heart actually died emotionally years before when he suffered a massive stroke. He spent the remaining years after trying to fill the voids, but never found true peace or joy, even when he thought he reached that magic plateau masked by wallowing in alcoholism. He also died young from "living" it up his way. I hate to say he got what he wanted, but he did - a short and basically unhappy life, for the most part. I don't think he ever did find true joy.

His affair had nothing to do with God or lack of God. It was his own morals and his own choices. Religion is not what makes or breaks a person's morals. They do that themselves. Billy Graham, a very religious man, slept with a prostitute and just recently that one minister of New Life Ministries slept with a male prostitute. The list goes on and on, but they did it themselves and have been very miserable because of their mistakes. Atheists have morals too and sometimes they do better than Christians.

I know of very few Atheists that "live it up" just because nobody is watching them. In fact, a lot have more morals than some Christians. It was NOT because your friend hated God that he was an alcoholic and alike, it was hatred for himself. He died due to self-abuse not because he hated any deity. He could not fill the void in his life because of self-hatred and self-loathing NOT because of a lack of any deity.

A lot of Atheists (and non-theists) live VERY fulfilling lives without any crutches in their lives. They stand on their own two feet without the belief in the supernatural. Yes, I am defending Atheism (including strong Atheism), even though I am much like Spong concerning god, and I will defend it even if I have to drag Hemant- the Friendly Atheist who sold his soul on EBAY- here to show you differently, which I hope to do so anyway.

So, when someone else can come forward, and outsparkle Ron - and the millions of other souls Ron has helped rescue and restored hope into their hearts (parents too), then I'd say that person is super special. But for now, there is only one Ron and Only one Charles (Chuck), my other favorite teacher. Yeah, I lived for years listening to Chuck, and he was wonderful... but Ron helped even one step further.

Now THERE is dogma in here, whether you can see it or not. He didn't help to rescue or restore hearts. He is probably very charismatic and manipulated people's thinking. When one is vulnerable and depressed, they don't always think for themselves and allow others to think for themselves thus they fall for anyone who seems to have a caring heart- even if it is full of dogma.

Does your efforts at meeting people find people like that? Or out of the blue, has anyone like that ever found you, and cared enough to go the extra 100 miles, if necessary to help pick up the pieces of your life, and help get you thru day by day, moment by moment - pray with you, until you learned to do it on your own...?
that's the kind of "life" experience I'm talking about here. :)

1. Yes, my efforts do and they are generally without dogma and without a belief in the supernatural. They are NOT self-centered and they DO want to help others too. Some do help without prayer and other help with prayer.

2. I don't have to lean on anyone in a co-dependent way, BUT that does not mean various people have not come into my life to help me even from a distance. HOWEVER, it was NOT God who did all the work. I did it myself because no one else would until I found someone to help me. I made my situation better by finding the right people who could help me. It took a lot of time, but as a child I did it. THAT is survival.

3. If as a child I sat there or laid in my bed at night praying for a rescuer and to be rescued, it would have never happened. No, I felt god in me and in my pets. I looked in my pets' eyes at the dreariest of moments, esp after they witnessed the worst of the worst of human behaviour and I felt transcendence- or what you may understand as "I felt god". THAT gave me the inner drive to keep searching for help even as a seven y.o. child. It took me at LEAST seven years to find help, but I found it and no there is no pattern in the sevens either, because it didn't completely end then, but it got better and eventually completely ended. It was not a supernatural deity that helped me, but a very natural god. One I saw in my cats and dogs eyes. (There is a psychological answer behind this too, but I won't go into that). There was no anthropomorphic deity that saved me, but rather human determination and the god (drive) within me. It was that transcendence I felt through my pets which helped to keep me going.

There's always more than one side to every situation.
If working the entire rest of your life gives you eternal pleasure, more power to yah. If you want friends to come into your life, who won't leave under any circumstance - then you've truly found a rare gift, indeed... or maybe that rare gift actually *found* you. It's all a matter of perspectives.
;)

Alisa, I can give you two different examples of human effort- with and without prayer.

A very good friend of mine who I hold in very high esteem (Hi Elorie! Hope you excuse me from using you as an example here), is a praying woman, BUT she doesn't just sit around and pray for her mother when her mother gets is sick. She finds a way to get her mother to a doctor. Oh I'm sure she's praying at the same time about her mother, but it's NOT prayer alone that is keeping her mother alive. Human effort is also involved and trust me, that human effort wears Elorie out BIG time. It's taking it's toll on her, I'm sure. IF Elorie sat around and just prayed for her mother's well-being, she would not have her mother right now.

Example #2 is completely and totally without gods or masters. It is based solely on reason and compassion without a belief in the supernatural. Paul Kurtz, a wonderful writer, humanitarian, and Humanist who is full of courage, self-determination, and very happy with his life, not to mention, he's pleasant to listen to also. He's a very remarkable man with a LOT of optimism.

He recently went into heart surgery with no prayer, but complete and total faith in medical science, trust in the doctors' abilities and the information they gave him about the surgery, and a lot of well wishes from those who know him or know of him. He faced it all standing on his own two feet with confidence and optimism, not to mention the support of family and friends (both known and unknown). He spent maybe 3 or 4 days in ICU and is now out of ICU soon to go home to finish recoverying.

He's not working for eternal pleasure. Both he and Elorie are working in the here and now. While Elorie hopes for an afterlife, she's not putting all her eggs in one basket by sitting around and waiting for the Holy Spirit to work miricles on His own. Paul Kurtz doesn't expect an afterlife. This is it and he is working to make things better for himself and humanity with a whole lot of optimism. I think he deserves the Humanist of the Year award, if he hasn't gotten it already. :LOL:

The point is, prayer alone always fails, but human effort, with or without prayer, gets things done.

[Kestra]

sort of remember... if the "Merkabah" is what will be transporting its chosen members, earth will not have the technology to see thru the "Merkabah's" cloak (if their is such a device). One moment it's here, the next it's gone! different dimension. ;) it has nothing to do with technology, but ones state of Being, Mind. it depends upon ones level of vibration.

no... that's not what I meant, either. The NT books were written after Isaiah.
According to Mriana's research, Mark was written BEFORE Matthew.
Today's order of the Bible (for example, NIV edition) has Matthew placed before the book of Mark (Mark comes after Matthew). that's what i mean, Matthew, Mark etc copied from Isaiah.

That is what the Gnostics say and that the transformation has already happened. It is said that the old world died and a new world was transformed in it's place. Thus, what people call the Rapture and Second Coming has already past- according to the Gnostics that is. well, i doesn't happen just once, it has occurred more than once, and will so again. when the seeds are ready for harvest.

I've seen the other side that science cannot comprehend. It's not humanism or rationalization, but it might be interdimensional by scientific terminology, if it *had* to be explained in some tangible form. There is no better explanation than that. I've learned -- get a hotline to God... speak what's on your heart... he'll listen ...and answer in his ways and timing. Works every time, and on a daily basis too! what you call god, i call Universe, and for me the Universe works in the same manner as your god.

bypass the humans, and go straight to the Persona in charge! It's amazing -- it really works. Life is Less stressful that way too -- since there's no "red tape" and giant lines of people and formulas to sit thru. But that processing of data is probably over many people's heads in more ways than one. you hit the nail on the head there.

Yes, ever sit there waiting for a phone call for a job?? On the day the call came, the company was sold to another buyer. So, you get hired anyway by the new guys. Then find out several years later... the company is going under again - Oooops! deja vu! No retirement fund in the kitty. Imagine going thru similar situations like that - having the rug pulled out from under you several times over... "Okay Lord, now what?" for me, when i ask for material things, sometimes they 'magically' manifest, or i am provided the means by which to obtain them. IE, several years ago, darling and i were standing in the kitchen and one of the lights burned out. and we both found ourselves thinking\saying we needed a new pack of light bulbs. and next thing we noticed a brand new pack of light bulbs on top of the fridge when they hadn't been there before, both of us had looked up there prior to their 'appearance'. so stuff like that does happen for darling and i. :dunno2: it doesn't matter whether anyone believe that or not, it's part of my life exprereince and i was just sharing.

Does your efforts at meeting people find people like that? Or out of the blue, has anyone like that ever found you, and cared enough to go the extra 100 miles, ;) along the same lines, whenever darling needs to see or speak with someone, he focuses on them and literally calls their name, and withing the hour they show up at the house or phone us(usually confused they say they just got a sudden urge to come over or call)

The point is, prayer alone always fails, but human effort, with or without prayer, gets things done. not necessarily. ;) butt then again, what is prayer?

[Alisa]

for me, when i ask for material things, sometimes they 'magically' manifest, or i am provided the means by which to obtain them. IE, several years ago, darling and i were standing in the kitchen and one of the lights burned out. and we both found ourselves thinking\saying we needed a new pack of light bulbs. and next thing we noticed a brand new pack of light bulbs on top of the fridge when they hadn't been there before, both of us had looked up there prior to their 'appearance'. so stuff like that does happen for darling and i. :dunno2: it doesn't matter whether anyone believe that or not, it's part of my life exprereince and i was just sharing.

along the same lines, whenever darling needs to see or speak with someone, he focuses on them and literally calls their name, and withing the hour they show up at the house or phone us(usually confused they say they just got a sudden urge to come over or call)
see? you *know* what I'm talking about. :)
it's that interdimensional connection thing... :D

You still did something to get that job- you went in to fill out the application for starters. So there was no god who did it all by themself. There was a human element.
right (sorry for any sarcasms there, BUT)... so a few years later I got pushed out of a job, because of "office" politics (they changed their policy and wanted their medical staff to return to doing the office work, instead of me, as a standard clerk)... spent then next several months on unemployment and filling out applications everywhere... waiting... no job guarantee... over-qualified again. Even temp agency work wasn't helping - no jobs were available - not within a 40 mile radius. Doors were slamming shut for weeks on end... and I couldn't afford to wait it out much longer, since I had a family to support by this time. How nice. I finally responded to an ad for something I didn't think I'd ever get (didn't feel qualified enough, and responded to it only as a wild whim - cause it was a long-shot), and guess what? That's the (only) job I was offered..! Nearing the end of my financial rope... Amazing... and just in the "nick of time", before the last $20 dollars of grocery money ran out.

The point is, prayer alone always fails, but human effort, with or without prayer, gets things done.
So, how should people pray? Repetitious "help me's?" Our Father's...?
Prayers feel like they bounce off the ceiling and back down to the floor like a ping pong ball?

I'd say if you're self sufficient and don't need anyone for help, don't ask for help - do it on your own (be selfish - self supportive)... in your own effort, etc. It's more stressful (to me) into doing things that way, than asking a simple prayer (for extra help, *please??*... *wink*)...

But to someone (like me) who lacks the genius wisdom because of being too indecisive, or insecure in not knowing what the *correct* decision should be, you seek guidance (human friends aren't always very helpful!) - and pray the choice you've made from that inner voice speaking to your heart within works out for the good. When I've failed to do that, the choices have always been complicated and not very helpful. Prayer isn't just filling out applications for jobs. It's gaining inspiring encouragement to get thru a difficult day... it's praying your head doesn't burst from the migraine exploding within (meaning, having a stroke). It's in the many little things that life brings along your way, because the rocky path can either be giant stumbling blocks or stepping stones... ;)

...butt then again, what is prayer?
Talking with your *best friend* and confidant for help. ;)
When I stopped doing the plastic Sunday "Jesus" (are you out there??) routine, and got down to basics - in regular conversations... it made all the difference in the world. *True* friends are like that - they make a difference!

[Mriana]

right (sorry for any sarcasms there, BUT)... so a few years later I got pushed out of a job, because of "office" politics (they changed their policy and wanted their medical staff to return to doing the office work, instead of me, as a standard clerk)... spent then next several months on unemployment and filling out applications everywhere... waiting... no job guarantee... over-qualified again. Even temp agency work wasn't helping - no jobs were available - not within a 40 mile radius. Doors were slamming shut for weeks on end... and I couldn't afford to wait it out much longer, since I had a family to support by this time. How nice. I finally responded to an ad for something I didn't think I'd ever get (didn't feel qualified enough, and responded to it only as a wild whim - cause it was a long-shot), and guess what? That's the (only) job I was offered..! Nearing the end of my financial rope... Amazing... and just in the "nick of time", before the last $20 dollars of grocery money ran out.

You are forgetting there is a human element involved.


So, how should people pray? Repetitious "help me's?" Our Father's...?
Prayers feel like they bounce off the ceiling and back down to the floor like a ping pong ball?

:eyeroll: I'm not even going to go there.

I'd say if you're self sufficient and don't need anyone for help, don't ask for help - do it on your own (be selfish - self supportive)... in your own effort, etc. It's more stressful (to me) into doing things that way, than asking a simple prayer (for extra help, *please??*... *wink*)...

Other humans is how one gets the help, but you have to ask them for help. You must have completely misunderstood what I said, esp about Paul Kurtz. He has plenty of support from people. It is their well wishes, along with his amazing amount of confidence and optimism getting him through it all. Just because he does not believe in the supernatural, doesn't mean he doesn't ever need emotional support or help. He's still human, but he gets support from those who care about him. I recommend you read some of his books: Living Without Religion: Eupraxophy and The Courage to Become: The Virtues of Humanism. It might help you understand, but you have to have an open-mind, yet above all think for yourself.

But to someone (like me) who lacks the genius wisdom because of being too indecisive, or insecure in not knowing what the *correct* decision should be, you seek guidance (human friends aren't always very helpful!) - and pray the choice you've made from that inner voice speaking to your heart within works out for the good. When I've failed to do that, the choices have always been complicated and not very helpful. Prayer isn't just filling out applications for jobs. It's gaining inspiring encouragement to get thru a difficult day... it's praying your head doesn't burst from the migraine exploding within (meaning, having a stroke). It's in the many little things that life brings along your way, because the rocky path can either be giant stumbling blocks or stepping stones... ;)

Are you sure you aren't my mother? You sound like my mother.

Talking with your *best friend* and confidant for help. ;)
When I stopped doing the plastic Sunday "Jesus" (are you out there??) routine, and got down to basics - in regular conversations... it made all the difference in the world. *True* friends are like that - they make a difference!

It's made a difference for me to stop trying to please my mother and giving her lipservice concerning her reincarnated Zeus/invisible friend and going with what I've always truly believed, while standing on my own two feet. I'm a much happier person. True friends accept you as you are, no matter how you view god, and while they may not agree with your beliefs, they can agree to disagree without trying to shove religious dogma down your throat, thus not making you feel very miserable.

Religion, esp that full of religious dogma, is not all it's cracked up to be and can cause people to feel very miserable, esp when they have educated themselves and know the difference between dogma and reality. It's when they breakaway they feel freedom (no, not the kind where you go wild and party all the time. :eyeroll: ) and the right to free inquiry, including into religious critism. That's when true enlightenment and happiness came for me. Even Elorie can tell you I really enjoy meeting and talking to different people, as well as learning all I can. :D

[Mriana]

I believe I have your answer to your question from the Bible Geek. He emailed me back and his follows your question below (I love this man. He's funny, but it's "Holder of the sacred chalice of Riix, etc etc" and that's Aunt Lwaxana's speil, not mine. Oh well, he tries. :LOL: ):

well, of course he's been around forever...! that's a no-brainer. :D
But the Gnostic gospels weren't part of the blessed Septuagint ... that's the key to Isaiah's 66 chapters in contrast to the 66 selectively chosen books of both OLD/NEW testaments of the Christian Bible.

so the Gnostic gospel wouldn't have any impact whatsoever. :p
It wouldn't change anything, because it would be an *added* book that was not considered to be part of the most "Holy" texts. ...and that includes all those extra apocryphal books, 6th books of Moses, etc..

now, here's a brilliant question that no one (here, so far) has the answer to
(except for the intervention of almighty God // the "spirit of the LORD" supervising these matters)--
how can it be that the chosen 66 books of the "blessed Septuagint" version match each chapter of Isaiah in consecutive order, so that the following situation occurs--


the silence is LOUD... ;)

Quote:
Originally posted by Alisa:

What's more amazing about that, is that according to the parallel Septuagint book to Isaiah chapter theory -- randomly near the middle of Isaiah's book is Isaiah 40:3. If the book of Matthew in Septuagint order is actually the 40th book of the Bible, does such a *theory* hold true? actually, it does, and I found out without ordering the study list for myself. Isaiah 40:3 has a parallel representative also written within the 40th book of the Septuagint Bible - it's a reinforcement passage written (completely randomly??) into the (40th Septuagint version) book of Matthew.

NOTE: (40th book in Bible=Matthew) Matthew 3:3 reinforces references made previously in Isaiah 40:3...!!

Quote:
Matt.3:1) In those days John the Baptist came...
Matt.3:3) "A voice of one calling in the the desert,
'Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.'"

Isaiah 40:3) A voice of one calling:
"In the desert prepare the way for the Lord;
make stright in the wilderness a highway for our God.

(both passages are from the NIV Bible)

can anyone *rationally* explain that?? - if these books were just randomly thrown together without rhyme or reason by a higher power overseeing these things... I personally find it highly doubtful that some ingeniously brainy-minded people thought up such a crazy idea centuries ago to suddenly, extremely *carefully* and deliberately arrange the books so that each one would line up exactly with each chapter of Isaiah. Especially, since people that lived before the 20th century have been compared to being rather primitive in culture and certain intelligences.

I have yet to hear any rational explanations that can clear up this particular mystery of time and documentation.

His reply after showing him the three posts involved (Your two and mine):

Holder of the Sacred Rings, etc.,

What your friend suggests is interesting on the face of it, but impossible the closer you look into it. What kills the theory is history of the development of the canon of scripture. One feature alone is enough to set the phaser on "kill." The Hebrew authors did not enumerate the books as we do. They considered all 12 Minor Prophets to be a single book, "The Book of the Twelve." They did not divide the Books of Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles into First and Second.

Besides this, she is presupposing the Protestant Old Testament canon, which as 66 books, lacking the so-called apocryphal books 1 and 2 Maccabees, Tobit, Judith, Esdras, Sirach, Wisdom of Solomon, Baruch, Epistle of Jeremiah, etc. Present in the Septuagint, these books were eventually excluded by the Palestinian rabbis, though embraced by Christians until Martin Luther. They were nonetheless printed in the King James Bible until 1823. I am not saying who is right to include them or to exclude them, but it hardly makes sense to predicate a theory of there being 66 books in the Bible on the Septuagint which has a larger number of Old Testament books, and thus makes for a total of biblical books exceeding 66.

Her theory is all coincidence based on human editorial arbitrariness. In the same (irrelevant) way, the Gospel of Thomas has 114 sayings (the way most divide it, though not all), and the Koran has 114 surahs. So what?
Robert M. Price
The Bible Geek


-----Original Message-----
From: mriana(address removed)
To: criticus(address removed)
Sent: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 8:10 PM
Subject: Here's something you could answer better than I can


On the Roddenberry board someone has asked the same question twice and said no one has answered it. I tried, but they either missed it or I didn't explain it well: http://bbs.roddenberry.com/showthread.php?t=1885&page=8 You'll have to scroll down to posts # 118 and 119 She's wondering why Matthew is just like Isaiah in places. I tried to tell her twice now in different ways:

I did explain it and it was anything about God, but the writers. Go back a few posts.

Try the post that follows right after it. I went into details of all that I have learned about that: http://bbs.roddenberry.com/showpost.php?p=61345&postcount=89 I even gave various resources, including one online resource.

Mark was written first. They were not put in the Bible in the order they were written. Matthew borrowed from Mark for he was not satified with Mark's version, took verses from the Talmud- such as Ezekiel- to fit into his version and wrote the account, just as Mark did, using the Hebrew litergical calendar.

Either I am explaining it wrong, she missed my answer, or something. You could either give me something to answer her with in which I'd refer back to you or sign up to answer her question or give me a link to refer her to that will answer her question. Thanks.

Mriana

Well, there's his answer. I don't know how much it helped you or if the answer satisfies you or not. As for the Gospel of Thomas, I believe he is referring to the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas. It's the only one I know of.

You know, now that I re-read his answer, I don't know if he got as far as the Matthew and Isaiah thing. :huh: Maybe he did and maybe he didn't. Now I'm lost.

[Kestra]

see? you *know* what I'm talking about. :)
it's that interdimensional connection thing... :D quite.

here’s an example of what i mean by "what is prayer?" years ago darling and i were driving home, he decided to go off on a side road to look at something. it was quite foggy so the car ended up getting stuck. fortunately we weren’t far from his folks house. so he left our dog and me with the car and headed off on foot. before he left he made a comment about not having the right shoes for such a trek and needing new shoes. i stood looking off into the south our dog Murphy sat by me quietly. i started talking to her, as i do with my pets, then i sighed and said to her "oh Murphy, daddy needs a new pair of shoes." and low and behold, when i had led Murphy outside to explore she came home carrying a new pair of shoes. and they were darlings size. he's got big feet size 13. so, was that a prayer or simply musing?

Gnostic gospels were left out\removed from the bible because they contradicted the dogma of the religious leaders of that time.

You are forgetting there is a human element involved. sometimes there is, and sometimes there isn't. sometimes it's a canine element. ;)

[Alisa]

Mriana--
"Holder of the Sacred Rings," etc. -- ehhhh?? he sounds like Chuck (one of my Bible teachers on tape) LOL!
..enjoy the *sacred* name while it's there..

As for the Gospel of Thomas, I believe he is referring to the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas. It's the only one I know of.

You know, now that I re-read his answer, I don't know if he got as far as the Matthew and Isaiah thing. :huh: Maybe he did and maybe he didn't. Now I'm lost.
I think he read it all.
Her theory is all coincidence based on human editorial arbitrariness.... So what?
Robert M. Price
The Bible Geek
see? he used that word "coincidence" which is exactly what I was referring to ... tho the Isaiah/66 Bible books is an extreme form of *coincidence*. This is something that these conversations have been dismissing or making serious attempts at trying to dismiss at.
later... :D

...so he left our dog and me with the car and headed off on foot. before he left he made a comment about not having the right shoes for such a trek and needing new shoes. i stood looking off into the south our dog Murphy sat by me quietly. i started talking to her, as i do with my pets, then i sighed and said to her "oh Murphy, daddy needs a new pair of shoes." and low and behold, when i had led Murphy outside to explore she came home carrying a new pair of shoes. and they were darlings size. he's got big feet size 13. so, was that a prayer or simply musing?

...sometimes there is, and sometimes there isn't. sometimes it's a canine element. ;)
I'd say someone was in need, and got an answer to that need (and it sounds like - quite quickly, too!).
Same size needed and matched, too -- how's that for accuracy...? ;)
Angels come in various disguises... yours must have met up with Murphy and left the shoes to be brought home... got lots of stories like that.

Mriana, I'm taking some of your stuff over to the preconception/behaviors topic because something that I was thinking of on one of your comments is more of that than this topic. I will make links back to here for x-referencing.
(so glad I learned how to do that...! *grin*)

more later...

[Mriana]

Mriana--
"Holder of the Sacred Rings," etc. -- ehhhh?? he sounds like Chuck (one of my Bible teachers on tape) LOL!
..enjoy the *sacred* name while it's there..

Oh it made me smile. Trust me. :D It made me feel really good.


I think he read it all.

see? he used that word "coincidence" which is exactly what I was referring to ... tho the Isaiah/66 Bible books is an extreme form of *coincidence*. This is something that these conversations have been dismissing or making serious attempts at trying to dismiss at.
later... :D

He also said: human editorial arbitrariness

Mriana, I'm taking some of your stuff over to the preconception/behaviors topic because something that I was thinking of on one of your comments is more of that than this topic. I will make links back to here for x-referencing.
(so glad I learned how to do that...! *grin*)

more later...

Be my guest. I think some of the conversation fit better over there anyway.

I'm so glad he was able to answer your question for you. I really enjoy listening to him on Sunday afternoons on Freethought Media too. He makes me laugh sometimes too.

[Kestra]

I'd say someone was in need, and got an answer to that need (and it sounds like - quite quickly, too!).
Same size needed and matched, too -- how's that for accuracy...? ;)
Angels come in various disguises... yours must have met up with Murphy and left the shoes to be brought home... got lots of stories like that. she was good at bringing home things. one day she brought home an unopened 12 pack of beer. :LOL: i have no idea where she found that.

[Mriana]

Sounds like a VERY smart dog. :LOL:

[Kestra]

she was a smart girl, Belgium Shepard. she loved fireworks too. she used to howl down the coyotes. :D

[Alisa]

WARNING - very graphic descriptions included! (in comment area)
Al Gore's planetary quest to clean up the environment is going a bit too far in some of these extremes.

I've posted this in this topic, because it involves more than mere "Global Warming" issues... this is what the future of earth will be facing...
(please click on link in article title for complete details)
posted on the WorldNetDaily web site...
"Planet Earth banning common light bulbs" (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54822)
THE HEAT IS ON
Environmental concerns cited in growing global crackdown

© 2007 WorldNetDaily.com
Posted: March 22, 2007, 1:00 a.m. Eastern

They're unwanted in Cuba, Hugo Chavez is trying to kick them out of Venezuela, Australia and Canada are on timetables to get rid of them, the European Union says they soon simply won't be available and now the U.S. is considering new rules that effectively would ban the incandescent light bulb.

It's a global sweep so far, triggered by worries that the invention of Thomas Edison uses too much energy or generates too much heat for the earth to tolerate, despite the reports by WND that a member of a congressional committee is challenging the "facts" used by Al Gore in his "An Inconvenient Truth" movie, saying science just doesn't validate concerns that such factors are significant environmentally.
...
The ban plans already are being implemented in some nations, and in the United States, though it hasn't been enacted nationally yet, several states are well on their way toward such bans, including trend-setting California as well as Connecticut, North Carolina and Rhode Island.
...
Gore has called such warming "a crisis that is by far the most serious we've faced," and described it as "a true planetary emergency."
...
"If we all start using eco bulbs then I suggest we all start using night vision goggles, because the eco bulbs are useless," wrote Peter H., from London. "The box told me that it gave out the same level of light. The box was WRONG. I tried them. The bulbs were terrible, I could barely see to the other side of the room.

"It could save you money on your bills but you would spend the rest off (sic) your life in and out of hospital because you don't have fluorescent walls and furniture," he continued. "Save yourself a trip to the hospital, use normal bulbs.

Among the plans being developed, too, there is no mention of how to handle the mercury from old fluorescent bulbs. Mercury, a highly persistent and toxic chemical, can build up to dangerous concentrations in fish, wildlife, and human beings.
first of all, Al Gore has gone hog wild nutzo in his environmental issues (told yah this would happen!!
He wants the entire environmental regulations completely revamped, which translates (INTERNATIONAL) compliance thereof going major hogwild ASAP... and "job security" for some folks, so I've heard...) :rolleyes:

Maybe these are good issues for future space exploration, planetary adventures, but his timetables for requesting his suggestions to become LAW (nationally for now) are going to turn lots of people who can't afford such "installations," etc., verrrrrrry angry.

there are other environmental issues that also need to be addressed from several directions... we're heading that way REALLY soon...
Aside from installing solar panels and mini-turbines (mini-windmills) per every household, stopping further contaminations of our town sewage water and underground aquafer water supplies is another issue.

...things like stop flushing your toilets (wait til they're maxed out -- and if any toilets overflow from getting clogged up in the piping system, don't blame the folks who recommended that),
stop using toilet paper - to conserve on paper (yeah, that's a nice one for folks with major bowel movement problems, and females cycling thru "that time of the month" especially on their heavy-days). :eek2:

I think some of these issues I heard and read about in conserving water for protecting our environment should involve the CDC - especially regarding using any water from cleaning hands for cleaning "dirty" dishes (better not be done after using the toilet!!)... maybe the rich and famous can get away with that and not get dysentary! :mad:
but will have to comment more on those later...

[Dot]

I have the eco-bulbs and they work just fine..
I think the hysteria is on the side of the person who wrote the story.
and your lightbulbs (regular variety) do use a lot of energy

the congressional idiot is from Oklahoma, and it is his one of his claims that dinosaurs farting caused global warming..the mad is a total moron.

[Alisa]

I have the eco-bulbs and they work just fine...
at home, we have the scrawny eco-bulbs, but having them on a dimmer switch might work better... (hint, hint!)

...as for the "GREEN" tipped office set-up type eco bulbs over me, well, they don't seem to last too long. Some (half of them) have turned pink (we just replaced the other half that went into the darker pink zone), and I'd rather work with less bright (white) lights anyway, so I can see my computer screen. I only turn my "desk" light on when I need to, which is very rarely. ;)

As for the other issues -- water related, I've found a few articles that had environmental conservation comments in them... I asked for a few opionions already, and the reactions were more shock and "whhhhhaaaaaaaaat????!" than anything else.
later... :)

[Alisa]

serious hypotheticals...
drought stricken areas must conserve on water... pure drinking water is becoming harder and harder to find. Desalination plants need to be constructed along the ocean/sea shorelines so the coastlines can use that water while the underground aquafers replenish...

but what happens when both the ocean and fresh waters become too toxic to drink...? local areas are currently assessing which locations might have serious contamination of toxins, making water borderline to not advisable on drinking it at all. Anyway, people with water a plenty, don't think twice about turning on the tap and taking 15 minute showers.

In disaster zoned areas where there's "water-water everywhere, but not a drop (that's safe) to drink," those folks usually have to rely on bottled water to drink... so how safe is grey water for other things?

Below is an article that was done as a water conservation challenge. For 40 hours, anyone can forgo a shower, unless you do heavy work and in a sticky climate. Even snow shoveling for 2 hours warrants a shower and hair shampoo! (Otherwise, I dare you to show up at work without showering/grooming first!)

Drought stricken Australians got creative on a 40 hour schedule, which is no big deal in most situations, because 40 hours is less than 2 whole days. Try doing some of these conservation suggestions for an entire month or more -- it can't be done without health consequences, and that's where the issues should be looked into.
complete info provided in links (at) article titles, but not sure how long the links will exist... :(

posted on the ABC.net.au web site...
"Saving water runs in the family" (http://www.abc.net.au/greatsouthern/stories/s1877794.htm?backyard)
Last Update: Friday, March 23, 2007. 9:22am AWDT
By Simon Brown

The ABC's 40 hour drought is all about raising awareness of the water we use, and families all over Australia this week are doing their bit to save water.

There's one Western Australian family, though, who have gone to great lengths to save water. From creating a system to water the garden with their waste water to installing a giant underground tank to harvest stormwater from the street gutter, building home water-saving infrastructure runs in the genes of these water wise folk.
...


"Savings huge in 40 Hour Drought" (http://www.abc.net.au/water/stories/s1879713.htm?backyard)
as of Friday, 23 March 2007

Over 2,000 people across Australia eager to save water have risen to ABC Radio's challenge of using just 40 litres of water in 40 hours, with around three-quarters successfully staying below the lean quota.

The 40 Hour Drought, which began at 7:00pm on Wednesday and finished yesterday at 11:00pm, was a tough ask of participants considering the average Australian uses over 200 litres of water in just one day.

Water Services Association executive director Ross Young says this means that participants were able to reduce their water usage by a staggering 91 per cent - or 630,000 litres.

... Hundreds of those involved responded to an online survey, showing a remarkable number of ways in it's possible to conserve water.

-- "No showers - used a dish and a cup instead. No clothes washing - stored it up for a big load tomorrow. Used shower water to flush toilet."

-- "Reduced shower to less than two minutes. Didn't use water for teeth cleaning. Used hand washing water for soaking dirty bowls in kitchen."

-- "1. Take a 18 second shower 2. Only flush toilet for "big" ones 3. Eat meals that don't need a lot of h2o 4. Enjoy!"

-- "Didn't flush the toilet. Didn't have a shower. Didn't drink as much water."

-- "Used basin of water to wash hands; stopped flushing toilet at home; restricted myself to 5 litres water for daily wash."

-- "Plastic tub wash, standing in tub and using container to rinse. Wash once a day. Reuse tub water to fill up toilet cistern and water plants. Use glass of water to rinse and brush teeth. Only flush toilet if poop not wee. Half flush. Dispose of dog poo in bags not flush. No clothes washing Limit washing dishes to evening after dinner. Use water spray bottle to clean, not soaking cloth under tap."

-- "Didn't rinse plates before stacking in dishwasher. Only had one shower in 40 hours. Eww!! Only brushed teeth once in the morning. Eww!! Didn't cook with water. Didn't wash any clothes."
...

when my parents lived on a well, and we had to pay for septic services...(ha, ha!), to conserve on what went down the toilet - my mom got creative with a lidded (clean) toilet paper pail (this was before smelly free garbage bags were invented!).
# 1 uses went into the pail
# 2 uses got flushed along with it's other stuff down the toilet.

I could see homes having the space, doing such looney things.
Water Saving toilets also exist. However, the automatic flushers along the turnpikes and national highways will need to be turned off or stop flushing so many times, every time movement is detected...!

One person suggested a bodet (sp?)... rinse off the germs and hair dryer you dry instead of using toilet paper!

As for the person in the above article recommending
Used hand washing water for soaking dirty bowls in kitchen.
is that wise?? (as in healthy, especially if going to the bathroom, doing your *dropoffs* and then using the kitchen sink to wash your hands while making water to soak dirty dishes?? dirty or not... the germs still exist, and toilet kind of germs are not for kitchen food items, in my POV!) :eek2:
soaking dirty bowls with dirty, potentially germ-infected water?
how healthy is that?? if the items aren't fully soaped and thoroughly rinsed, isn't that a way to get dysentery if done on a regular basis?? (That's where I became *most* concerned!!). :eek:

...have an 18 second shower?? only enough time to rinse off, not lather up etc!
so, use a pint size pot of water to start. soak a washrag and lather up the soap to washrag... then apply to body and clean all areas. Use the water in pot to replenish the washrag, and reapply soap, if needed. Then after you're all done with that, then you can do that 18-second shower...

(either the person suggesting that wasn't really scuzzy dirty to begin with, OR they must be a marine! my dad used to brag about the navy's 2 minute showers. Now we're only allotted down to 18 seconds??)

think hard about these things. There are people who want to turn the entire planet backwards a few hundred years, for the sake of global warming and to purge the planet of its current toxins... killing people off by hook or by crook (injecting pesticides into food or outright nuking some of us) is NOT the way to do that.

There ARE many countries or areas of this planet that don't have much water, and its people bathe in dirty rivers, if a water source exists at all. They clean dishes without running water (so it's a wonder they don't get gastro-intestinal disorders more often!). People who have luxuries without thinking about them, don't realize how bad life is for half of the people on this planet.

[Alisa]

Since GLOBAL WARMING and Cleaning up EARTH's Environment are such HOT, HOT issues nowadays...
;)

serious hypotheticals...
drought stricken areas must conserve on water... pure drinking water is becoming harder and harder to find. Desalination plants need to be constructed along the ocean/sea shorelines so the coastlines can use that water while the underground aquafers replenish...

but what happens when both the ocean and fresh waters become too toxic to drink...? local areas are currently assessing which locations might have serious contamination of toxins, making water borderline to not advisable on drinking it at all. Anyway, people with water a plenty, don't think twice about turning on the tap and taking 15 minute showers.

In disaster zoned areas where there's "water-water everywhere, but not a drop (that's safe) to drink," those folks usually have to rely on bottled water to drink... so how safe is grey water for other things?
...
Drought stricken Australians got creative on a 40 hour schedule, which is no big deal in most situations, because 40 hours is less than 2 whole days. Try doing some of these conservation suggestions for an entire month or more -- it can't be done without health consequences, and that's where the issues should be looked into.

Two articles here... food for thoughts. I was looking for info on "flushing toilets" without toilet paper, and the following articles sort of came up... they sort of connect with the previous "drought" article, in the sense that if a bodet (automatic toilet flusher/body cleaner), in the sense of using pure tap water or recycled (grey) rinse water from somewhere...

I thought the articles I found were both interesting, but also a pain since NOT everyone can afford to remodel their existing home/abode...
I have to post and will try to return later...

posted on the thisismoney.co.uk web site...
"Budget 2007: What is a zero-carbon home?" (http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/mortgages/article.html?in_article_id=418676&in_page_id=8&ct=5)

Simon Lambert, This is Money
9 December 2006

...The Chancellor said until 2012 all new zero-carbon homes built and sold for under £500,000 would be exempt from stamp duty.

This was a clarification of his pledge in the mini-Budget last year, which he claims will help Britain become a world leader in green homes.

But, as ever, the devil is in the detail and while a bold statement about the environmentally-friendly homes of the future sounds great in theory, in practice things are much less straightforward.
...
Gordon Brown announced that until 2012 all newly-built zero-carbon homes sold for up to £500,000 will be exempt from stamp duty. All those costing more than £500,000 will see a £15,000 reduction in their stamp duty bill.
...
The zero-carbon recipe

Design Consultants Arup have suggested a number of innovations:
• Triple-glazing, filled with special gas such as argon, which maintains room temperature. Pipes carrying cool, recycled water instead of air-conditioning.
• More water-efficient washing machines and improved boilers.
• Systems that can recycle 65% of household water by using water from sinks, showers and washing machines for flushing toilets and watering gardens.
more...

posted on the thisismoney.co.uk web site...
"The zero carbon home dream" (http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/mortgages/article.html?in_article_id=415463&in_page_id=8)

Simon Lambert, This is Money
22 March 2007

...What exactly is a carbon zero home?

A zero carbon home is one that returns to the National Grid as much power as it uses over the course of a year. Unless you plan on living somewhere with no heating, electricity or water, that means a zero carbon home will need to be kitted out with equipment for microgeneration – the production of energy on a small scale.

So, in come mini-wind turbines, solar panels and a wood pellet burner for generating energy. Meanwhile, to keep that precious energy in you will need clever, draught excluding construction with super-insulated walls, a geothermal heating system extracting heat from the ground and triple-glazed windows. You might also want a rain water collecting tank to supply the washing machine and toilets and to be connected to a reed bed sewage system for organically cleaning human waste.
...
I know people who would *LOVE* to install some windmills, and solar panels, but there's not enough property to do so! If that's not the issue, then money for installing everything to make the homeowner's haven an earth friendly GREEN zone *is*... :)

In Al Gore's world, the little guys who can't afford these property upgrades -- well, they're the ones who will most likely suffer and be "punished" financially, because they simply CAN'T afford to make drastic changes like that! Those who can buy new, or have oodles of property to spread out those magic solar panels, can afford to make the changes, and they will be the ones *benefitting* under the environmentally friendly rules. Everyone else is (figuratively) screwed. :mad:

And if the winds don't blow too often, or the sun doesn't shine... rain and winter storms last for more than a week, the homeowner is up a creek without a paddle for extra energy, so to speak. Also, what about homes that have switched from oil heat to gas? From what I understand of these energy-saving concepts, Solar energy isn't going to turn on the gas to the furnace. So, how's the furnace operate without external connections to gas turning on the hot water pipes??

Does anyone know?
Also, I wonder what Ted Kennedy is thinking about all those wind-mills ruining his ocean view... why isn't he (who basically has one of the strongest voices in the USA Senate) standing up against Al Gore's ingenius little plans to "SAVE" the earth...?? :p
or is it, just "not on *my* property" that Ted Kennedy is opposed to it?

[Alisa]

one more... for the moment.

wow! to all you eco-GREEN tree-huggers, etc. ;)
I came across an interesting publication at EPA's web site (it's in PDF format, so you'll need an Acrobat Reader program or something like that in order to view it).

To my *NATIVE* American friends (don't know who you all are), the article I found was published by Native Americans on EPA's Tribal Conservation teams, so you especially will probably most likely enjoy reading this mini-magazine. Anywho, there's valuable insight with helpful phone numbers or other contact sources (on page 18) from the National Green Pages as to how to make things more ECO-friendly, if you can afford the installations, etc.

there's also info on the various levels of mercury and mercury poisoning and other pesticide factors in the environment; and a few items on recycling. It's a fairly thorough booklet (64 pages for the Summer/Fall2004 edition).

posted on EPA's oppt/tribal web site...
see "OPPTS Tribal News" (http://www.epa.gov/oppt/tribal/pubs/t-news-fall2004.pdf)

Please also NOTE --
1) it might take a while for the entire PDF to come in. Mine took a few moments longer than I thought it might - it kept reading as "done" but continued to show another message - still "transferring info from epa's web site"... weird.
2) not sure if the above link will change in the future, because several of EPA's links have changed from several years ago.

enjoy!! :)

[Mriana]

The pollution is much worse, Alisa, on reservations because the Gov. has been using reservations as dumping grounds for years- including nuclear waste. It is horrible what has been done to that land, not to mention to the people who live on the land. :(

[Kestra]

I have the eco-bulbs and they work just fine..
I think the hysteria is on the side of the person who wrote the story.
and your lightbulbs (regular variety) do use a lot of energy

the congressional idiot is from Oklahoma, and it is his one of his claims that dinosaurs farting caused global warming..the mad is a total moron. darling and i use eco bulbs they work just fine. we also do a few of the things on the Aussie list.

solar panels go on the roof of the house. during the sunny days, the house is run from solar power, there are also batteries that are charged for those cloudy days. same for wind power. i'm sure if it becomes mandatory for ppl to use these kinds of renewable energies there will be government assistance for those of lower income. there's lots of info out there on how solar, wind power etc works. read up on it before going ballistic. not everyone needs to use wind power as it produces excess electricity. in these parts pse is switching to wind power east of the mountains.

yeah right, dinosaur farts cause global warming. the same has been said of cow burps. and Reagan when he said trees create carbon dioxide. :eyeroll2: that's right up there with giggles spouting off that trees cause forest fires, so let's cut em all down.

anyway, read up on those kinds of energy first.

[Dot]

you're right Mriana, I been screaming for years the harm they've done on the rez..
year after year the govt. has denied accontability..always blaming it on something..then to add fire to the gasoline they already spread, the money that was supposed to go to the tribes for the *use* of their land has gone into the multi millions and no-one seems to know where it went.. poof and it's just gone.

[Alisa]

okay, side note on the eco-lights being used outside...
a very reliable electrician, who is required to know about these things said that the ECO-lights do not work well outside in COLDer weather. He said they flicker too much and go dim too fast... and he works with these things almost everyday, so his knowledge is from experience, not from someone else's article on the subject.

He said the eco-lights start to flicker, etc., after the temperatures drop to 40 degrees (F) and below. After they dim out, they're slow to start up again (in the same temperature ranges). He also said that he could provide a scientific reason why this occurs, but it'd be over most of our heads...

hey, I just ask him to screw the bulb in and make it work... he figures out the rest. :D
He also said there *are* no instruction warnings about these (feature) failures in the packaging that the bulbs come in, so maybe that guy who wrote the article wasn't too OFF the wall.. he just wasn't totally clear enough in his explanations...?

Maybe the government should start labeling the eco-bulb packages for
"works best in temperatures at... NOT advisable to use at temperatures... due to elements... and do NOT expose base of bulb to rainwater..."
too, like the government agencies are making everything else getting labeled for
"No Trans Fats" on certain food packages, etc.

[Kestra]

we have an eco-bulb for our porch light, no problems with it. and it got down into the low teens this winter. darling just walked in he says it takes the older eco lights 30 secs to warm up and reach full brightness. the newer ones are instant. he also says the disadvantage is if you use them in the bathroom and only leave them on for 20 - 30 secs whilst u do you business, they'll burn out sooner and not last the 7 years. you need to leave them on for at least 4 minutes.

[Mriana]

My older son begged me to get the energy saving bulbs and when I got them he was not happy with himself because they contain mercury. I'm not sure if you all are talking about the same thing. These bulbs are 15 watts and equal 60 watts of a regular bulb but last 5 years if used on a 4 hour basis per day. Because of the mercury, we have to dispose of them in a special way. :(

[Alisa]

Mriana, I think these are the same eco-bulbs that you're talking about.

There was an article in that PDF link that I've posted, published by the Native Americans, who wrote about mercury poisoning somewhere in that EPA magazine. I'm not sure if the light bulbs were included in the article, but what you're saying about disposing them (by special means) is correct.

Originally posted by Kestra:
he says it takes the older eco lights 30 secs to warm up and reach full brightness. the newer ones are instant. he also says the disadvantage is if you use them in the bathroom and only leave them on for 20 - 30 secs whilst u do you business, they'll burn out sooner and not last the 7 years. you need to leave them on for at least 4 minutes.
that sounds like another example of needing more instructions on those packaging labels... ;)

[Kestra]

i don't have one handy at this moment to see what it says. which brings up another question. how many ppl acturally read what's on the package?

[Mriana]

My son for one. I didn't read as much of the package as he did, but I read some of it. He read it all.

[Alisa]

...how many ppl acturally read what's on the package?
I only read the wattage amounts to see if I have the correct replacement bulb. My hubby reads the rest. ;)

[Kestra]

darling reads what's on the package too. sometimes i do, and sometimes i don't. now i'm curious to see what there might be on the eco-bulb package.

[Alisa]

sorry for the interruption...
thought I'd dump this into this topic, since everything else surrounding it seems to fit...
this probably needs it's own thread. i'm listening to Air America and apparently the Russian and French (European news) news have released stories that US plans to attack Iran April 7 2007. and it's called: Operation Bite.

what?! the Day before Easter, Easter (that'd be April 8, 2007)... or is that "Good Friday" (April 6th - see article below)??

Is the USA (gov) Admin trying to force the "hand of God" to make the *Rapture* happen -around Easter-time...?
no wonder there's anarchy growing in the younger ones...

... As if Al Gore's fright fest on Global Warming catastrophe isn't enough, the rest of our USA gov want us all dead??!! :rolleyes:


3 articles... one is written verification supporting what Kestra wrote.
(click on links in article titles for complete details)
posted on the RaidersNewsNetwork web site...
"Operation Bite: French & Russian News Reports US Will Attack Iran In Next 10 Days" (http://www.raidersnewsnetwork.com/full.php?news=4053)

Interpretation from
By Webster G. Tarpley
Added: Mar 27th, 2007 9:01 AM

Operation Bite: April 6 Sneak Attack by US Forces Against Iran Planned Russian Military Sources Warns
General Ivashov Calls for Emergency Session of US Security Council to Ward Off Looming us Aggression


The long awaited US military attack on Iran is now on track for the first week of April, specifically for 4 AM on April 6, the Good Friday opening of Easter weekend, writes the well-known Russian journalist Andrei Uglanov in the Moscow weekly “Argumenty Nedeli.” Uglanov cites Russian military experts close to the Russian General Staff for his account.

The attack is slated to last for twelve hours, according to Uglanov, lasting from 4 AM until 4 PM local time. Friday is a holiday in Iran. In the course of the attack, code named Operation Bite, about 20 targets are marked for bombing; the list includes uranium enrichment facilities, research centers, and laboratories.

The first reactor at the Bushehr nuclear plant, where Russian engineers are working, is supposed to be spared from destruction. The US attack plan reportedly calls for the Iranian air defense system to be degraded, for numerous Iranian warships to be sunk in the Persian Gulf, and the for the most important headquarters of the Iranian armed forces to be wiped out.
...
“Moscow must expert Russia’s influence by demanding an emergency session of the United Nations Security Council to deal with the current preparations for an illegal use of force against Iran and the destruction of the basis of the United Nations Charter,” said General Ivashov. “In this context Russia could cooperate with China, France and the non-permanent members of the Security Council. We need this kind of preventive action to ward off the use of force,” he concluded.
...
well, if that is all false information being handed out from somewhere, it's detailed enough and out in public enough that --if *true*-- the returning fire (from IRAN) won't be nice.
And if none of it is true, or even out-dated by a few days/weeks/months it's a BAD April Fool's joke, if it is one.


posted on the RaidersNewsNetwork web site...
"Iran: If U.S. Starts War With Us, It Won't Be The One That Finishes" (http://www.raidersnewsnetwork.com/full.php?news=4051)

Reuters, Added: Mar 27th, 2007 8:58 AM

A senior Iranian military official warned the United States against launching any attack on the Islamic Republic, a news agency reported on Monday, two days after the United Nations imposed new sanctions on Iran.

"If America starts a war against Iran, it won't be the one who finishes it," Morteza Saffari, naval forces commander of the elite Revolutionary Guards, was quoted as saying by the ISNA news agency.
...
"We have the spirit of resistance and this is a factor to stop [them] Saffari said. "Our nation's unity and martyrdom-seeking spirit with God's help is always a guarantee for the Islamic Iran's resistance."
...
ohhhhhhh, that's always *comforting* (NOT). National spirit of Martydom. There's the answer.
and to make matters worse or reinforce ALL of the above articles, here's another reaction...

posted on the RaidersNewsNetwork web site...
"Line Drawn In The Sand: Countries Begin Evacuating Their Citizens From Iran" (http://www.raidersnewsnetwork.com/full.php?news=4054)

Mikhail Zygar and Alena Kornysheva
© 1991-2007 ZAO "Kommersant. Publishing House". All rights reserved.

World Powers Prepare to Evacuate Their Citizens from the Country

This weekend the United Nations Security Council unanimously adopted a resolution imposing harsh sanctions against Iran. The resolution gives Tehran two months to cease its nuclear program, but hopes that the ultimatum will be heeded are almost nonexistent. Instead, the world is bracing for the increasing likelihood of a military strike against Iran. Kommersant has learned that Russian companies working in the country are already working on plans to evacuate their employees, and Russian diplomats also acknowledge that preparations to evacuate Russian citizens from the country are underway and that evacuations could begin as early as May.

The Exit is Near

Rumors that almost all of the world's leading powers are concerned about an upcoming evacuation of their citizens from Iran were flying at the end of last week even before the adoption in New York of UN Security Council resolution #1747....

...according to Ayatollah Khamenei Iran's war with the West has already begun: this confrontation already includes "psychological warfare, economic warfare, and opposition to the development and improvement of Iranian science," he said, adding that "psychological warfare is the most important component of the enemy's plan."

Tehran believes that one of the facets of the psychological war being waged by the West against Iran is the new Hollywood film "300," which tells the story of a contingent of 300 heroic Spartans (the bearers of democratic values) battling a hoard of villainous and treacherous Persians at Thermopylae in 480 B.C. According to Gholam-Hossein Elham, an official spokesman for the Iranian government, the blockbuster is nothing more than propaganda against Persian values. "Of course, no nation can stand that. It is a hostile act, a psychological and cultural war." In an official protest lodged by Iran with the UN Security Council, the film is referred to as "a rude attempt to present Persians as a source of evil and moral decay." The Iranian authorities maintain that the film is designed to prepare Westerners for the upcoming war and to explain to them that even the ancestors of today's Iranians were hostile to Western civilization.

Iran is also preparing itself for actual war. At the end of last week, the Iranian Navy launched a massive program of military exercises in the Persian Gulf. The commander in charge of the training exercises, Admiral Mortaza Saffar, announced before the exercises began that "if the US starts a war against Iran, it will not finish it."

In fact, military exercises have been ongoing in Iran practically nonstop for the last several months, and even before they began Iranian officials were asserting that they do not fear an American invasion, because the Iranian army is ready to repulse any assault. Meanwhile, negotiations have been limping along, attended by weak promises to resolve the crisis peacefully. Even though they approved the last anti-Iranian resolution, Russia and the West are continuing to say that the door is open for negotiations to be opened and that the crisis can be resolved. However, it is becoming more and more difficult for them to hide the fact that no one is holding out any hope for a peaceful outcome.
...

and some people wonder why the kids get so stressed out at school...
... maybe it's from something called a promising *FUTURE* for them, or lack thereof...??
... no wonder why some of them are living on anti-anxiety Rx drugs, taken legally or illegally...!!

I grew up with the 1970's Cuban Missile Crisis (the BIG nuke BOOM threatening the USA, right off the coastline of Florida!). We didn't have pacifying crutches like the tranquilizers or hyper motivating over-the-counter/Rx drugs out in today's markets. We dealt with the news and hid under our pillows hoping for a happy tomorrow. We either became or were already stressed out -- but learned to endure thru it, because we didn't have such social crutches to lean on, unless people were taking things illegally...(??)

... and more in today's news... another state passed the OKay to NO HOMEWORK -- for kids who don't want to do homework either, because *it* makes them sick and stressed out... (pause .. hmmm) would last minute mad rushes and cheating on tests with cell phones/text messaging have anything to do with that {long ago I heard a comment to that as -- "pansies!"}? So they get to hang out in the streets thruout the night that much longer... :mad:

how are kids growing up in that type of world going to survive in the real business world... or is that what the business world of the future is going to consist of...?? the "I'll do it tomorrow" never happens, because tomorrow never gets here.
:SHS:

and if this whole USA "blow-up" with IRAN occurs, there ain't gonna be *any* tomorrows for a lot of people...
(fill in the blank..) what a *____* way to say "Have a good weekend!!"
:sad:

[Mriana]

My older son saw 300 and he didn't get that at all out of the movie. It was just a movie.

I do think the Shurb et al are out of their minds if they attack Iran, esp since the citizens of the U.S. don't want it.

[Kestra]

thank you for those links Elorie.

[Alisa]

thank you for those links Elorie.

3 articles... one is written verification supporting what Kestra wrote.
(click on links in article titles for complete details)

well, if that is all false information being handed out from somewhere, it's detailed enough and out in public enough that --if *true*-- the returning fire (from IRAN) won't be nice.
And if none of it is true, or even out-dated by a few days/weeks/months it's a BAD April Fool's joke, if it is one.
hmmm, yw... but -- you *must* be tired...
(looks at self in mirror... Alisa - not "A Lisa" -partial *origin* of name...) ;)

More news...
I heard another report on the radio, but can't find it in print something about President G.W.Bush complaining about info like that getting into the eyes and ears of the public by foreign medias. He wasn't too happy and basically said that he wants those persons prosecuted for publishing the info, and any American agency (possibly Reuters, AP, etc?) also (tracked down and) prosecuted and
charged for "treason" against national {military} secrets.

Somewhere (don't remember if it was the same report...), I also heard that if/when any military strike does occur at any time in the {near} future, it won't be leaked out like *that* report was (it was implied that the culprits in high places will be reamed out and penalized for it)... so it'd be kept
more like "hush, hush, mush, mush" (guardian angels *Curtis* lingo) horoshima-type secretive. Translation implied:
expect a "blitzkrige!!" news report to most likely be heard about after the fact... if so, then again we (average USA civilians) might not live long enough to hear about it, especially if there's retaliation caused from the *other* side and their allies or right within our own country from those "sleeper cells"... :(


I do think the Shurb et al are out of their minds if they attack Iran, esp since the citizens of the U.S. don't want it.
Bush has his mind made up, and doesn't *care* what any people think about it at all. It's not just using the power of the Veto pen. And there are people supporting his decision in the media (probably at the top of that list is Sean Hannity, cause that's all he says ALL the time and very *emphatically!!*) because they all believe it is both the *right* thing to do, and the ONLY option left (and was the only option to start with).


My older son saw 300 and he didn't get that at all out of the movie. It was just a movie.
To the Iranians, it was about the Persian Empire -- ancient or not -- it's their land, and their ancestors, and just like some native born Americans don't like the way Native Americans are treated now, as opposed to hundreds of years ago, so it is with Persia or the combined empired of IRAN and Iraq lands/people. The current day IRANians saw it as a political manuever by the film-makers against their LAND and People, regardless of century. Native Persians, whatever they are known as in today's world -- they are highly territorial... and also (based on some reports that I've heard) continue to hold the CRUSADES as leverage against the world, too (that should be *obvious* by now).


Is the USA (gov) Admin trying to force the "hand of God" to make the *Rapture* happen -around Easter-time...?
slight clarification there -- they want Armageddon to occur, which *should* make the Rapture occur, but from where I've read the Bible... it'd be just like God of the ancient scriptures to let them have their war or war games, but Rapture won't happen by *FORCE*... for worst case scenario, see below--

TPTB (gov't powers) that are forcing all these issues, will be forced to live thru the doomsday scenario, just as some ancient Hebrews were forced to swallow their pride for taking measures into their *own* hands. The outcome of those situations was NOT a pretty result for the ones who deliberately engaged in doing that. I could list a few examples, but it's really late... and I don't have time to look them up right now.

It also goes back to that old saying of "Lord, Lord, didn't I do _______ in Your name, and didn't I _________ for your sake as well???"
(Hope that made sense.)

[Mriana]

Bush has his mind made up, and doesn't *care* what any people think about it at all. It's not just using the power of the Veto pen. And there are people supporting his decision in the media (probably at the top of that list is Sean Hannity, cause that's all he says ALL the time and very *emphatically!!*) because they all believe it is both the *right* thing to do, and the ONLY option left (and was the only option to start with).

Makes the old saying very true: Power corrupts and Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

slight clarification there -- they want Armageddon to occur, which *should* make the Rapture occur, but from where I've read the Bible... it'd be just like God of the ancient scriptures to let them have their war or war games, but Rapture won't happen by *FORCE*... for worst case scenario, see below--

So who's trying to play god? As far as I know you can't FORCE a god to do anything and last I read, you can not FORCE the God of the Bible to do anything.

TPTB (gov't powers) that are forcing all these issues, will be forced to live thru the doomsday scenario, just as some ancient Hebrews were forced to swallow their pride for taking measures into their *own* hands. The outcome of those situations was NOT a pretty result for the ones who deliberately engaged in doing that. I could list a few examples, but it's really late... and I don't have time to look them up right now.

They are making a grave mistake, because it's not in the Bible. This idea is a a late 19 century idea. Some woman had a dream, they called it a vision, then some right-wingers pulled some verses out here and there then said, "See? Her vision is right." :eyeroll:

It also goes back to that old saying of "Lord, Lord, didn't I do _______ in Your name, and didn't I _________ for your sake as well???"
(Hope that made sense.)

Well, that anthropomorphic, reincarnated Zeus will sit on his throne and ask, "YOU think YOU can FORCE ME to do anything? Well you're WRONG! Obviously I didn't do anything. YOU DID! Did I tell you to do that? No. Can you read my mind? No. But, since I enjoy sending bears after little children because they make fun of my prophets, seeing babies slammed against walls, women treated as property, and basically total distruction, and alike, off you go to Hades. I'm sure Charon will just love farrying you across Acheron. Wonder what Hades will do after that? This could be great fun."

[Kestra]

hmmm, yw... but -- you *must* be tired...
(looks at self in mirror... Alisa - not "A Lisa" -partial *origin* of name...) ;):doh:

More news...
I heard another report on the radio, but can't find it in print something about President G.W.Bush complaining about info like that getting into the eyes and ears of the public by foreign medias. He wasn't too happy and basically said that he wants those persons prosecuted for publishing the info, and any American agency (possibly Reuters, AP, etc?) also (tracked down and) prosecuted and
charged for "treason" against national {military} secrets. :ROLF4: that's rich, giggles lied to Congress, decieved us into this war, he spies on innocent citizens (phone calls, emails, snail mail) without warrents, he promotes and condones torture, he outed one of our most covert CIA operatives for spite against her husband telling truth about his lies, yadda, yadda xing xing xing. he's like Marley from Christmas Carol. his chain just keeps getting longer and longer. he's the one who has commited acts of treason.

Somewhere (don't remember if it was the same report...), I also heard that if/when any military strike does occur at any time in the {near} future, it won't be leaked out like *that* report was (it was implied that the culprits in high places will be reamed out and penalized for it)... so it'd be kept
more like "hush, hush, mush, mush" (guardian angels *Curtis* lingo) horoshima-type secretive. oh we've got our eyes trained on you :king: giggles, no more hush, hush, horse :horse:

[Dot]

first thing we'll hear about a nuke strike is from giggles underground shelter..thanking us all for our *co-operation* in this time of need.

by then the nukes will be flying from all over the world.

China and /Russia have said they will NOT TOLERATE a military invasion or strike against iran..

[Kestra]

it would appear that China and Russia are not the only ones, what with the dinner cancellations.

[Alisa]

So who's trying to play god?
After all these months of news that's been going on, if you don't know that by now, then ... (long pause...) geesh...! :p


So who's trying to play god? As far as I know you can't FORCE a god to do anything and last I read, you can not FORCE the God of the Bible to do anything.

They are making a grave mistake, because it's not in the Bible. This idea is a a late 19 century idea.
it's not?? Then why are TPTB on both sides trying to make (force) the details in the Book of Revelation happen (in various ways already described with Microchipping, and our honeybees dying off from potential poisoning of man's OWN doing which eventually *might* cause potential future agricultural famines), and everything in world politics heading towards that dreaded Armageddon scenario with the ruling powers of ancient Persia in modern day times teaming up with Syria and eventually Gog and Magog?

BTW, Russia announced in a recent article (see March 26, 2007 news) that they will not be joining the EU membership.
for details see article -- "Russia Will Not Seek EU Membership — Putin" (http://www.mosnews.com/news/2007/03/26/putineu.shtml), MOSNEWS, Russia - Mar 26, 2007
ehhh, that's one of those *obscure* little details noted in the book of Ezekiel (Chapters 38 and 39) describing a future battle against Israel, where Russia is not part of the original Roman Empire (EU). If this has already happened -as past history, then it'll be deja vu.
*Coincidence*... NOT! It's just working out *that* way... :rolleyes:

...slight clarification there -- they want Armageddon to occur, which *should* make the Rapture occur, but from where I've read the Bible... it'd be just like God of the ancient scriptures to let them have their war or war games, but Rapture won't happen by *FORCE*... for worst case scenario, see below--

TPTB (gov't powers) that are forcing all these issues, will be forced to live thru the doomsday scenario, just as some ancient Hebrews were forced to swallow their pride for taking measures into their *own* hands. The outcome of those situations was NOT a pretty result for the ones who deliberately engaged in doing that.

...As far as I know you can't FORCE a god to do anything and last I read, you can not FORCE the God of the Bible to do anything.
Nope, you can't force "GOD" to do anything, but he can let you fall flat on your face, if necessary. and it's not from being vindictive, but to teach us a lesson we won't learn any other way -- no matter how many people are involved or how much advice to prevent something disastrous from happening was given beforehand.

Saw it happen just this week to someone I see nearly every day. The "hand of God" allowed it to happen, so someone would slow down and get some rest, for crying out loud. No point in working yourself into an anxiety attack or an ulcer. That's what was happening to someone I know (and several of us who knew her were concerned she was heading towards an unnecessary "ulcer", and would have been advised to slow down when someone in authority over her could tell her, but that wasn't neccesary (and she was getting ancy and irate over little things, if you approached her at the wrong moment, too). The *powers that be* in that invisible realm took care of the situation first. Human factor -NOT!!

...and first thing in the morning, she tripped and went splat - head first.
Knocked her off her feet for the rest of the day. Bad for her head, but good for her from getting a nervous breakdown over something she was unnecessarily inducing upon herself.

Yep, (please don't take this the wrong way, but--) human factor in Mriana's mind... *divine intervention* in the minds of everyone else who saw the rest of the situation getting wayyyyyyyy out of (emotional) control.


Originally posted by Dot:
first thing we'll hear about a nuke strike is from giggles underground shelter..thanking us all for our *co-operation* in this time of need.

by then the nukes will be flying from all over the world.
sadly, that's the scenario that ran into my mind, when I first heard that news. :eek2:

[Mriana]

Alisa, I wouldn't worry about the E.U. They are far more humane than the Shrub with their Brussels Declaration: https://www.iheu.org/v4e/html/the_declaration.html I was happy to read it and I think it is good. It reads similar to the ideas put forth in ours and better, IMHO. There is no need to worry about the E.U. If I were a citizen of one of the European Countries, I'd sign it. They have a very good vision for Europe too, much like our fore-fathers did. It's better because they are remembering the women too with how they phrase things. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, etc. Democracy, Human rights, and liberty. What I've read is sound and good, unlike the Shrub's ideas and what he's done to our constitution. There is more of a threat from the Shrub than there is from the E.U.

it would appear that China and Russia are not the only ones, what with the dinner cancellations.

I don't blame them. Seems to me the Shrub is getting the cold shoulder from his own people and everyone else around the world. Gee... I wonder why he can't take a hint. Guess he's that brain dead and determined to do what he wants, when he wants.

[Elorie Alton]

Gee... I wonder why he can't take a hint. Guess he's that brain dead and determined to do what he wants, when he wants.

Here in Texas we'd use the phrase "he has played football too many times without a helmet on.:dizzy:

Elorie

[Alisa]

Originally posted by Alisa:
Then why are TPTB on both sides trying to make (force) the details in the Book of Revelation happen (in various ways already described with Microchipping, and our honeybees dying off from potential poisoning of man's OWN doing which eventually *might* cause potential future agricultural famines), and everything in world politics heading towards that dreaded Armageddon scenario with the ruling powers of ancient Persia in modern day times teaming up with Syria and eventually Gog and Magog?

BTW, Russia announced in a recent article (see March 26, 2007 news) that they will not be joining the EU membership.
for details see article -- "Russia Will Not Seek EU Membership — Putin", MOSNEWS, Russia - Mar 26, 2007
ehhh, that's one of those *obscure* little details noted in the book of Ezekiel (Chapters 38 and 39) describing a future battle against Israel, where Russia is not part of the original Roman Empire (EU). If this has already happened -as past history, then it'll be deja vu.
*Coincidence*... NOT! It's just working out *that* way... :rolleyes:


Originally posted by Mriana:
Alisa, I wouldn't worry about the E.U. They are far more humane than the Shrub with their Brussels Declaration...
hunh? hmmm, this topic sprouts more bunny trails ...
...than I have chocolate candies stashed away (in sealed storage containers) at my desk... :D
I'm pretending I didn't see that whole Brussels Declaration *thing*... because there isn't enough time to get sidelined into it right now.

Whatever that was about - sounded like either being a distraction to change the subject; lengthen it (which is okay to expand on an idea); avoid an obvious answer; or the point was misunderstood. Therefore, bringing this back into perspective about Russia (capital of Magog = Moscow, which *coincidentally is roughly 2 degrees - longitude line west and many miles north of Jerusalem on the up/down parallel in a straight line - hundreds of miles almost straight up on the north/south parallel line... one of the "kings of the north")... The E.U. doesn't bother me... it's just going to end up as a pawn in the bigger puzzle, just as it's been described... Now, the bigger question should be, WHERE the "H" is the USA gonna be in future relations with the rest of the world??

Back on topic with Russia bowing out of E.U. membership...
I had to dig into my notes (like *really* dig far) for an article I wasn't sure if it got posted or not, and sure enough, all the way back on PAGE 1 of this very same topic, there it was in the first message post -- an article about some of Israel looking at Ezekiel in the pages of modern day (21st century) news headlines. Here's the article in part-

posted on the RaidersNewsNetwork web site...
"Israel Sees Similarities Between Ezekiel's Prophecies, Today's Mideast Reality As Uncanny" (http://www.raidersnewsnetwork.com/full.php?news=1196)
Copyright © Yedioth Internet. All rights reserved.

By Ines Ehrlich, editor at Ynetnews
Added: Dec 12th, 2006 7:05 AM

Modern day Gog and Magog
Similarities between Ezekiel's prophecies, today's Mideast reality uncanny

Current world events are beginning to increasingly resemble the 2,500 year old bible prophecy made by Ezekiel in chapters 38-39. Ezekiel foresaw the rise of Russia (or Turkey, depending on the interpretation) in a coalition with Iran and other Middle Eastern countries (Sudan, Ethiopia and Libya).

The coalition is foretold to attack Israel from the north in a bid to destroy it during the earth's "last days," commonly known as the "war of Gog and Magog."

Throughout history it was thought that the prophecy had been put on hold, until perhaps today when it seems frighteningly more feasible.

In Joel C. Rosenberg's book "The Ezekiel Option," the author points to Ezekiel's prophecies in chapters 36-37, which have largely come true.

Rosenberg then asks the obvious question: If prophecies such as "the rebirth of the State of Israel, the return of the Jews to the Holy Land after centuries in exile, the re-blossoming of desolate desert land to produce abundant food, fruit and foliage, and the creation of an exceedingly great army" materialized in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, then why shouldn't the next prophecies come true in our lifetime?
...
Gog is commonly believed to represent a person's name rather than a place, a tyrannical leader who may hatch an evil plan – in today's reality this "honor" could be most suited to the President of Iran, Ahmadinejad, or perhaps Hassan Nasrallah in Lebanon .

Magog, according to some scholars, refers to Russia and the republics of the former Soviet Union, or perhaps Turkey. Others will argue that the exact location has not been fully ascertained and that the word Magog may simply be a generalization for an enemy of Israel, leaving the location open.
...
According to the prophecy in question, "many peoples with you" who will attack along "the mountains of Israel" implies that other countries will be involved in the Russian (or Turkish), Iranian, Sudanese, Ethiopian and Libyan coalition, and who border on the mountains of Israel. This includes Lebanon, Syria and possibly Jordan as well.
...
With this said, Ezekiel's prophecy says nothing about an Israeli pre-emptive strike to avert a possible attack – and indeed, it appears such a strike is unlikely considering the current state of our dubious, weak leadership.
...
Okay, based on the above, No pre-emptive strike would be necessary to stop this future war machine...
Then why are certain persons in the administration so bent on starting a war, EVEN tho they continue to *deny* doing so?

BTW, Glenn Beck on CNN Friday, March 30 (tonight) is scheduling to air a special on the "END of days" discussion (is what's happening part of Biblical prophecy or what?)... over this very *potential* (prophetic) situation.

and speaking of Glenn Beck... I had another more *URGENT* (or important!) article I've wanted to post much sooner... it's too long, so please see next post...

[Alisa]

potentially important!!!?
Dateline approximate... Minnesota, USA
and I hope I got most of this in the correct sequencial order... it's really late to be typing this up. But I fell asleep and forgot I had half wet laundry in the dryer...!
so, thought I'd work on this during the duration, while waiting... ;)
posted on CNN.com transcripts web site...
Is Sharia Law Gaining a Foothold in the U.S.? (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0703/27/gb.01.html)

Glenn Beck broadcast, aired March 27, 2007 - 19:00:00, ET

Tonight, the war against radical Islam heats up overseas and at home. Could Sharia law be gaining a foothold in the U.S.?


Well, tonight, while the rest of the world is focusing on Iran and Great Britain, as they need to, we also need to keep an eye on the homeland. Do you remember those innocent imams who got booted off a plane in Minnesota for reportedly shouting "Allah Ackbar" at the gate area, denouncing America and then changing their seats to the same ones the 9/11 hijackers used?

Well, it turns out they may not be quite as innocent after all. The media is afraid to tell you that, and in a way, so am I, but buckle up, you need to hear it.

Here is "The Point." Tonight, there is an extremist plot afoot here in America to silence dissenting voices. And here is how I got there.

Everybody in the media was so quick to point out that these poor imams were being horribly persecuted for peacefully expressing their freedom of religion at the airport. People were shocked, claiming that the imams were victims of bigotry. One of the imams, Omar Shahin, lashed out at Americans saying, quote, "If you don`t by now know about our prayers, this is a real problem."

The imams filed suit against the airline and, again, the media just ate it up.
...
Here is the truth about Omar Shahin. This is the leader of the flying imams. No relation to the flying nuns. He has reportedly helped raise money for at least two charities that have been suspected of supporting terrorism.

For three years, he headed the Islamic Center of Tucson, which one terrorism expert described in "The Washington Post" as quote, "basically the first cell of al Qaeda in the United States.

He and the other five imams are being supported by the Muslim American Society. This is what the "Chicago Tribune" reports, a group that was formed from the fundamentalist Muslim Brotherhood which preaches, quote, "that governments eventually should be Islamic," end quote.
...
The imams are trying to intimidate the airlines and persuade you, the passengers, to not notice things that could be dangerous or out of the ordinary.

Meanwhile, Sharia law is being shoved down the throats of Muslims here in America. You don`t believe me? You ask the Somali community in Minnesota. This is a dangerous combination. And unless bigger personalities than I start paying attention to this on TV, we won`t be worried about the separation of church and state anymore, we`ll be worried about the separation of mosque and state.

So, here`s what I know tonight. There are forces at work, not just in Tehran, but in Dearborn, Minneapolis, Phoenix, Norman, Oklahoma, Washington, DC, that are aggressively trying to get people to bury the truth.
...
Katherine, let`s start with you. You believe Minnesota is becoming a window on America`s future that looks a lot like Europe.
...
KERSTEN: We`ve had cab drivers refuse to transport blind people with seeing eye dogs.

BECK: Is it true that the government, the local government said we should put little lights on top to say we`ll take alcohol, we`ll take blind dogs or not?

KERSTEN: That`s right. I should point out too that about three quarters of our cab drivers at the airport here are Somali Muslims...
...

BECK: OK. Zuhdi, let me play devil`s advocate. Why not? Why do you have to be so hateful? Why not just allow people, if they don`t want to carry people with alcohol, they don`t want to carry blind dogs, why not?

ZUHDI JASSER, M.D., AMERICAN ISLAMIC FORUM FOR DEMOCRACY: Well, my perspective is that this is a fundamentalist interpretation of Islam, these are Wahabist Salafist interpretations of people that want to impose their beliefs on others. And I as a Muslim, a pious Muslim, I believe, I practice my faith regularly, I`m devout in my practice, I raise my children to be good Muslims as good Americans.

The reason my parents came here was to escape this type of imposition, this type of coercive force in our society. And that`s not Islam. Islam is a personal, spiritual faith.
...


BECK: So who is pushing it?

KERSTEN: The Muslim-American Society Minnesota Chapter issued a fatwa, oh gosh, in June of 2006 as I recall, claiming cab drivers who did transport people carrying alcohol were committing sin themselves.

And this is where the problem starts. There are hard-line activists here, very eloquent, highly organized, who are trying to exploit the Somali community for their own purposes.

BECK: OK. So, Zuhdi, you have this, and this creates a two-tier justice system. This is what we`re seeing over in Europe like crazy, a German judge just ruled that a woman couldn`t get divorced because she was Islamic and she was married in Morocco and should have known that in Morocco, according to Sharia law, apparently the way it was interpreted to her, a man has a right to beat a woman. So I`m sorry, the German judge couldn`t do anything and that`s what he ruled.

This is the kind of stuff that`s coming here, isn`t it?

JASSER: Exactly. I`m telling you this as a Muslim in that terrorism as a tactic, the ideology and the end that the terrorists seek is no different than this, which is Islamism, an inculcated process system into our society, whether it is parallel or separate, it doesn`t matter.

We need to fight this, because in order for Muslims to be free, liberated in our faith and America to be protected from that ideology, we cannot allow these types of processes and organizations like the Muslim American Society to seek this type of parallel society that I think is wrong for Muslims and wrong for America.

BECK: Why do you say they`re pushing it, though, Zuhdi? What is their intent? This is pretty .

JASSER: Well, their intent is Islamization. They feel that somehow their faith is their role to push that upon others and they don`t understand that actually religion is abrogated when you force anybody or you impose it on anybody else. So we need to have this debate. This is how we`re going to defeat Islamism is to open up the issue, allow Muslims to debate it publicly and tell the Muslim American Society their fatwa is wrong, there is no such a thing in the Sharia and that our Sharia should stay at home and not be imposed upon others.

one MAJOR point most of the media news reports continued to fail on pointing out was *what* these six Imams did, besides just chanting and switching their seats to the 9-11-2001 hijackers positions, etc. They specifically requested seat belt extenders and got them; then put the extenders on the floor for later use. WHY????????! According to the "official" reports, the men in question were skinny enough that they didn't appear to need seat-belt extenders.

So, *what* was the purpose of putting them on the floor...??
(speculations ranging -- to later strangle someone? hold them hostage? torture/whip them...?? whack them out??!)

In addition to the airline being sued, another report claimed that the passengers are also being sued for their *panicking* and observance of this unusual / strange behavior -- I'm guessing the seat-belt extenders was the one that set the mental sparks (of those observing this) into higher gear. One of the ladies who handed over one of the seat belts is also *probably* being sued for revealing her side of the experience! (She was interviewed on Sean Hannity's radio program, so the report on what she saw is authentic, according to her reinforcement version of the report.)

If this situation wasn't a drill for some future action "how much can we do now and not be noticed...?" - but instead is a form of politics, it is probably only one of many others being done on American (specifically- USA) soil. How much can the passengers get away with, and make lawsuits for whatever the reasons... how much can the laws of the USA be bent or broken...?


Would anyone here be so willing to sit next to those Imams and not know what their next move might be for the seat-belt extenders they just placed on the floor, instead of using them for their own seats on take-off...?? Somehow, I think mostly everyone here might NOT be so willing, or else at the very least - if remaining silent, suddenly feeling extremely uncomfortable from being put into that sort of situation, might have this as a reaction--
:eek4:

if the person(s) *in question* was any other culture or nationality, it shouldn't matter - any alert observer would get suspicious over a selt-belt extender being placed on the floor - if it didn't appear to really be needed, unless the person sitting there was paranoid and wanted to x-latch the thing somehow for extra in-flight *protection* (the stewards / stewardesses might have thought the selt-belt extender requests behavior was out of sync, too). Asking for warm blankets and comfy pillows are a whole lot different than asking for a super-sturdy, belt that could be used as a *knock-out* weapon or whip, and then oddly placed on the floor during take-off, instead. :(

[Mriana]

You're making too much out of the E.U. If you would just read the Declaration, which really is not that long, esp if you understand the terms, it's no better or no worse than our Constitution. In fact, I think it's better because it recognizes human dignity for all- not JUST a certain status of men.

If you would like, I could start a thread on this, but I think you mentioned it first, by equating it to a Biblical reference, which it has nothing to do with, thereby blowing it way out of proportion.

[Alisa]

hunh? hmmm, this topic sprouts more bunny trails ...
...than I have chocolate candies stashed away (in sealed storage containers) at my desk... :D
I'm pretending I didn't see that whole Brussels Declaration *thing*... because there isn't enough time to get sidelined into it right now.

Whatever that was about - sounded like either being a distraction to change the subject; lengthen it (which is okay to expand on an idea); avoid an obvious answer; or the point was misunderstood. Therefore, bringing this back into perspective about Russia (capital of Magog = Moscow, which *coincidentally is roughly 2 degrees northwest of Jerusalem in straight line down - hundreds of miles almost straight up on the north/south parallel line... one of the "kings of the north")... The E.U. doesn't bother me... it's just going to end up as a pawn in the bigger puzzle, just as it's been described... Now, the bigger question should be, WHERE the "H" is the USA gonna be in future relations with the rest of the world??

You're making too much out of the E.U.
ummm, no. I don't live there, so it's irrelevant to me, personally - for the moment.
I'm just listing the names that pop up in the news, that's it. What other people take out of that is their own pondering.

... If you would just read the Declaration, which really is not that long, esp if you understand the terms, it's no better or no worse than our Constitution.

If you would like, I could start a thread on this, but I think you mentioned it first, by equating it to a Biblical reference, which it has nothing to do with, thereby blowing it way out of proportion.
what I wrote has nothing to do with the details within the E.U.'s Declaration.
however, if you feel it's that important to learn about - go to it / knock yourself tiresome out over it, if others want to hear about it.
...I most likely won't be participating in those discussions, unless the subject morphs somehow... :p

I mentioned the E.U., because the movie "300" got mentioned, and then Persia and Russia... and... Russia bowed out of the E.U. membership, etc., on the discussion went..., which if you knew (or understood) Bible prophecy, the alliance of Russia with Persia (Iran) is significant. Glenn's topic tonight is discussing some of this. Believers or not. Literal nations or figments of someone's imagination. History is taking place now. The nations are lining up strangely with the way the scriptures listed them thousands of years ago.


Anyway, I was more concerned about the other article below. This one is happening NOW, and will affect the people in the USA, if a world war doesn't break out first...

the more important issue was the Minnesota report that aired on Glenn Beck
(CNN's Glenn Beck broadcast, aired March 27, 2007 - 19:00:00, ET) about the airline being sued by the Imams and the politics that's being tested against both the airlines and the passengers. THAT's the more immediate situation for folks who might be traveling to anywhere and potentially encountering an similar type of situation!

The obvious question is--
Should people seeing this type of *strange* behavior take notice and say something or keep quiet, and maybe end up as quiet little lambs led to a *potential* slaughter...? Anyone who has anything that looks like it could turn into a lethal weapon any more, is suspect under a strong "proceed with caution". Yeah, this particular situation has caused those proverbial demons under every rock syndrome paranoia.

either link below works (both go to the same r-com post)...
is *Sharia Law* activating in Minnesota, USA?? (click on link here to other details) (http://bbs.roddenberry.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=63692#post63692)

potentially important!!!?
Dateline approximate... Minnesota, USA
...
one MAJOR point most of the media news reports continued to fail on pointing out was *what* these six Imams did, besides just chanting and switching their seats to the 9-11-2001 hijackers positions, etc. They specifically requested seat belt extenders and got them; then put the extenders on the floor for later use. WHY????????! According to the "official" reports, the men in question were skinny enough that they didn't appear to need seat-belt extenders.

So, *what* was the purpose of putting them on the floor...??
...
I'd suggest re-reading the entire story in there (use the arrow link in the above quote).

[Mriana]

ummm, no. I don't live there, so it's irrelevant to me, personally - for the moment.
I'm just listing the names that pop up in the news, that's it. What other people take out of that is their own pondering.

It's a small world, Alisa. You might not live there, but just as we affect them in some way, they affect us too.


I mentioned the E.U., because the movie "300" got mentioned, and then Persia and Russia... and... Russia bowed out of the E.U. membership, etc., on the discussion went..., which if you knew (or understood) Bible prophecy, the alliance of Russia with Persia (Iran) is significant. Glenn's topic tonight is discussing some of this. Believers or not. Literal nations or figments of someone's imagination. History is taking place now. The nations are lining up strangely with the way the scriptures listed them thousands of years ago.

Today has nothing to do with the Bible. It is not a prophesy and trust me, I do understand the Bible, probably better than you realize. Anyway, I only got 3 hours of sleep last night working on a paper, then turned around and went to todays classes. The paper isn't due until Tues, but I'd like some time to do the other one that is due on that day too. I'll read your article again later.

[Alisa]

I mentioned the E.U., because the movie "300" got mentioned, and then Persia and Russia... and... Russia bowed out of the E.U. membership, etc., on the discussion went..., which if you knew (or understood) Bible prophecy, the alliance of Russia with Persia (Iran) is significant. Glenn's topic tonight is discussing some of this. Believers or not. Literal nations or figments of someone's imagination. History is taking place now. The nations are lining up strangely with the way the scriptures listed them thousands of years ago.

Today has nothing to do with the Bible. It is not a prophesy and trust me, I do understand the Bible, probably better than you realize.
...I'll read your article again later.
I'm not trying to convince you in particular of anything, beyond me not being the *traditional* Christian (I didn't get to think certain ways by the many preconceptions that have been thrown at me over the years - but that's for the "Preconceptions..." topic).

Just do me a favor... don't complain later -- if everything that's been being said *actually* happens with Russia lining up with Iran (it already has, by supplying nuclear technology and scientists to make it work), and now backing out of the E.U. membership (another phase of the prophetic order)... well, just pray it's not too late before the armies of what's left of the entire world show up on the plains of Meggiddo over control of Jerusalem.

Remember... you heard it from the pages of the Bible first. ;)
that book that isn't supposed to be *really* real...

[Mriana]

Sorry, dear, it's not there and I didn't hear anything about it from the pages in the Bible. It makes no sound and you forget, man wrote it, not God and it is not inerrant. What's there to pray for? That no one blames God for it IF we get nooked like they did in 9/11 when he didn't have anything to do with it? Sorry, it wouldn't be his fault, but rather humans.

[Alisa]

someone's writing *subliminal* ("...right-winged wacko...") messages over Mriana's post...! *hallucinations* not. :rolleyes:
found the problem... Dot's topic "Liar, Liar..." post was bleeding into this one somehow...
weird - as in, more like this = :wine: (and I'm completely sober!) :p

Sorry, dear, it's not there and I didn't hear anything about it from the pages in the Bible.
yeah, lots of folks say that and deny anything connected to it. That's called *coping* in areas of adversity. I used to *do* that, too. Except mine was more like begging the powers that be "out there" to hold off on that END timetable -true or not, at least for a *few* more years.
It's normal.

But I'm not writing these things for Mriana and me...
there are lurking visitors here, too. 121 on the "guest" list to POV, and over 1500 on the viewing list last time I saw it.


I find it intriguing that Iran has its own version of Messiah returning, along with Israel still looking for its Messiah... and the rest of the world sits and waits trying to figure out who's gonna win this war of words (Ishmael's descendants or Isaac's). That's what I'm seeing (and I never knew about that aspect of the Muslim / Islam *spiritual* life before Iran's current President mentioned it). If people deny this is what is actually happening - then there's a problem in understanding both cultures and their belief/knowledge thereof.

[Mriana]

someone's writing *subliminal* ("...right-winged wacko...") messages over Mriana's post...! *hallucinations* not. :rolleyes:
found the problem... Dot's topic "Liar, Liar..." post was bleeding into this one somehow... weird...

More like Left-wing, but that's ok.


yeah, lots of folks say that and deny anything connected to it. That's called *coping* in areas of adversity.

Well, actually, no it's not coping. Not to be as rude and arrogant as others, but it's from studies in the Episcopal church (which I won't begin to explain, you just have to know what the liberal side IS), with those who know almost or just as much as Robert Price, studies at a university, and writing papers on various religious topics in the uni. And once again not to sound like Wesley either, but I usually make an A or B on such papers. I just finished one and about to work on the next, with one more to go before the end of the semester. So, even though I don't know everything about the Bible, I do know and understand a lot more than you give me credit for.

But I'm not writing these things for Mriana and me...
there are lurking visitors here, too. 121 on the "guest" list to POV, and over 1500 on the viewing list last time I saw it.

Evangelizing?

Oh, I assure you, if I had even one glass of wine, you'd know it. Just ask Elorie. She's always trying to tell at least one story about me after one glass of wine and being tipsy. No, I'm just freaking tired from having only 3 hours of sleep. Well, back to figuring out what I'm going to write for my next paper, but I promised Mother Elorie that I would get some sleep tonight and do the biggest part over the weekend. :)

[Alisa]

Evangelizing?
nope... just repeating the news to / for the folks who don't usually get it from those *other* directions. :)

consider it as "Equal Opportunity news" moments. :p
since Knightstorm is no longer posting, you speak about your liberal *humanistic* side... I guess I'm picking up the baton or whatever for the more Biblically "born-again" *Christian* side (tho I'm sure it could be shared much harder-core than I've been sharing on such things),

even tho I'm not totally fundamental in one particular area (and that's in Tv sci-fi viewing, which is often shunned by many of the more "Biblically" oriented Christian groups)...
some folks might also label my experiences as coming from the completed *Catholic* side... ;)
- which is much different and more conservative than Episcopalian, and definitely NOT Lutheran, since we got dunked (Baptized via full immersion in a Baptist church, which goes against Lutheran policy, and has greater meaning than the mere sprinkling in the face by the Catholic baby baptism method)... closer to a Methodist, maybe.

and not Charismatic (too shy to constantly outwardly raise and praise hands); not evangelical ... or I'd be passing out *Chick* tracks, and unloading my hoards of other tracks that even the Churches can't pass out anymore, because folks like the ACLU are trying to have such things banned by LAW. There's currently a situation going on where the Gideon Bibles are under scrutiny into being banned from hotels and motels, and replaced with something else.

Combining several years into this sentence, I found the Bibles hidden in the motel drawers - out of sight. I practically had to look for a Tv guide, too in some hotels / motels! Of course, you get into a nice motel, and they don't carry the Sci-Fi channel..!! You go to the cheaper motel, and they do CARRY the Sci-Fi channel (depending on which night it is - that's 7th heaven, regardless to me!!!) :D

Anyway, anyone living here in the USA, you abide by the laws of the land and respect it, whether agreeing with them or not... *sigh*
it's my *native* (birth) soil... but if a new planet was for moving - and it was nice enough to permanently settle there, instead, my native roots move as memories... (*grin!*)

[Elorie Alton]

nope... just repeating the news to / for the folks who don't usually get it from those *other* directions. :)

There is a great fallacy preached among the Conservatives be it religious or political, that their position doesn’t get fair reporting, which isn’t true of course. Most reporting is unbiased (a point I am not going to argue with anyone). To combat this “Conservatives” have formed their own news groups that clearly are biased in their point of view.

They seemed to be under the impression that one only need to expound on the Conservative theory and converts will flock to them. This isn’t true either; the best way to influence people is simply by “doing to them as you would have them do unto you.”

consider it as "Equal Opportunity news" moments. :p
since Knightstorm is no longer posting, you speak about your liberal *humanistic* side... I guess I'm picking up the baton or whatever for the more Biblically "born-again" *Christian* side (tho I'm sure it could be shared much harder-core than I've been sharing on such things),

I am a Biblically “born-again” Christian and neither you nor he spoke for me, nor do you speak for a lot of us. Your rhetoric and narrow views actually drive people away.

even tho I'm not totally fundamental in one particular area (and that's in Tv sci-fi viewing, which is often shunned by many of the more "Biblically" oriented Christian groups)...
some folks might also label my experiences as coming from the completed *Catholic* side... ;)

They would shun anything that required thought, either because they cannot control the thoughts, or because they are “afraid” of the truth. The true test of your “Christianity” comes not in how you talk about your belief, but in how you live it. I wouldn’t want to follow Knightstorm’s path, because he clearly didn’t live, or treat others as a Christian should.

Anyway, anyone living here in the USA, you abide by the laws of the land and respect it, whether agreeing with them or not... *sigh*
it's my *native* (birth) soil... but if a new planet was for moving - and it was nice enough to permanently settle there, instead, my native roots move as memories... (*grin!*)

If you look at the “laws” of the USA, you will find that most are in place because someone chose to abuse someone else’s freedom. In other words your freedom to stand on street corners and shove “tracks” at people violates those that don’t want to get the tracts and those whose businesses' you are standing in front of and driving away their clientele, right to do business. Contrary to the “Conservative” point of view, the first amendment does protect ones right to be “free” from religion.

You need to understand that a bible in a motel room isn’t nearly as important as the friendly face, the understanding word, the simple comfort from a truly Christian person.

Alisa you may be preaching to the lurkers but did it occur to you that Mriana is too.

Now I am going back to writing my latest story (I actually have three started all romances – Mriana could have told you that LOL). I am at the point where I need to start on the “adult” part. I am spending today with my daughter and tonight and tomorrow in a couple of the Janeway/Chakotay chat rooms. Lots of fun.

Elorie

[Alisa]

re: outcries against *biblically based* Christianity...

one thing I think Knightstorm was trying to state about the whole conversations going between humanism or whatever vs. the Biblical version of things -- if it's OKAY for the non-believing side to spout off (speak) their side of life in a POV topic, BUT it's NOT okay for the other side to share (speak) as well??

Over recent months, there's been in increase in various media reports against Christianity - in general.
that's what the opposing or "offended" public voices are noting with all of those lawsuits against public places (malls as well as Churches) displaying nativities with baby Jesus, and more recently with people wearing crosses for jewelry in public -- these are now becoming *public* NO-NO's (because *it* might "offend" someone).

And to that, I have understand and sort of respect that, because it always ends up with what's good for the goose is good for the gander and then our world ends up with all kinds of folks showing up with disgusting things like what twisted things are*cool* in the eyes of some kids, and more recently the "F-* ewe song (which some kids and some ADULTS have fallen in love with)! I have to hear that one nearly every week being shouted in the (public) streets, while the kids go merrily on their way... Banning of some speech (certain *offensive* phrases) just might be appropriate for specific situations... :rolleyes:

But then the Courts making the laws run the risk of deciding what's offensive and what isn't - Because something is always going to be offensive to one person, and not to another person.

Alisa you may be preaching to the lurkers but did it occur to you that Mriana is too.
Of course! and from my inner gut, she's being a bit emphatically *pushy* about it too...! ;)
(no need to fear Mriana, your worldview side seems to have more votes than my *Christian* side) :p
...my firm belief (gut feelings) in any of these discussions boils down to the additional following info...

Let the readers decide and discern which is the correct reality or not. I think so far, there's more of a push to squash Jesus and what others think or believe in those matters and Biblical prophecy, than to let the various News reports in the news media speak on or for their own weight. Yet none of the other religions are touched. Right now, it's Christianity that's on trial - not just the "Jesus" and other written Biblical passages factor. And that's just a GUT feeling, from the TV news and crazed documentaries -- Not just from reading these forum topics. ;)

And I won't repeat what my hubby thought of Jesus being played up as (Mriana's) the Zeus factor. His *reaction* was more akin to something Knightstorm would say...! :eek2:

FAIR speech (preferably in neutral and friendly speech tones) is supposed to be FAIR. And I don't feel that is what is being shared here. There's more hostility against the *other* side, than the mainstream worldview. But that is too be expected! ...and yes, I am aware of *other* sides who also feel unfairly being designated and under "pressure" for their beliefs as well. But for the moment, we're discussing the worldview vs. the Biblical Christian POV.

If this is truly a POV topic, then both sides should be *fairly* or equally presented and spoken for.
I don't attack humanism, because in my opinion - it's futile to even try to say anything about it. Plus, what I'm hearing is part spiritual humanism, but even that's being denied as being spoken of that way. My grandfather became a Spiritist (that's *occult* oriented for those who don't know the difference). I inherited some of his *powers* of sight (seeing auras, precognition, spirit sense perception - communication with the *spirits*, etc.). Some of what I'm hearing from Mriana about "God" sounds just like what my grandfather thought of "God" in her POV's on "cummuning" with nature discussions - but I don't speak about it, because I simply don't want to get sidetracked down that bunny path. It's TOO complicated.

[Alisa]

now, back to the more important article of the moment...!!!! Please read below. :eek2:

MSNBC just printed an (Associated Press) article last night about the Imams and their lawsuits. It's basically similar to what Glenn Beck's broadcast was discussing, but goes into further details, like the descriptive *heavy* belt buckles that were being requested.

If the extenders were going to be used, why put them on the floor? That question has still NOT been answered. If you're taking off in flight, you are REQUIRED to fasten your seat belt. Most people I've seen on planes, usually have their seat belts already set and buckled up *before* the airplane is taxi-ing out onto the runway.

So, the seat-belt extenders should have technically been immediately attached, instead of being put away on the floor or anywhere else for "later" use. It's that aspect that had the observant passengers get suspicious about the enxtenders possibly being hoarded away to be used later as a flying weapon or for some other immobilizing use (and possibly against fellow passengers).

Please click on the title for link to the MSNBC article--
"Imams removed from flight may sue passengers" (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17874497/)
Updated: 10:37 p.m. ET March 30, 2007.

[Mriana]

Now that I have had several hours of sleep...

BTW, I was not talking about Jesus when I played the "Zeus Factor". I was talking about the view of "God the Father" in that case, not "God the Son". It was no where near blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, either. Just an impression of some Christians idea of God, which I know some Christians got a good laugh out of, because they too see some Christians anthropomorphazing God.

And yes, you are hearing some Spiritual Humanism from me. Not all of it, though, and it is good you do not critize something you know nothing about, because then I'd have to educate you about it and what it really is. Too many people have unfounded stereo-types about it.

nope... just repeating the news to / for the folks who don't usually get it from those *other* directions. :)

consider it as "Equal Opportunity news" moments. :p
since Knightstorm is no longer posting, you speak about your liberal *humanistic* side... I guess I'm picking up the baton or whatever for the more Biblically "born-again" *Christian* side (tho I'm sure it could be shared much harder-core than I've been sharing on such things),

even tho I'm not totally fundamental in one particular area (and that's in Tv sci-fi viewing, which is often shunned by many of the more "Biblically" oriented Christian groups)...
some folks might also label my experiences as coming from the completed *Catholic* side... ;)
- which is much different and more conservative than Episcopalian, and definitely NOT Lutheran, since we got dunked (Baptized via full immersion in a Baptist church, which goes against Lutheran policy, and has greater meaning than the mere sprinkling in the face by the Catholic baby baptism method)... closer to a Methodist, maybe.

and not Charismatic (too shy to constantly outwardly raise and praise hands); not evangelical ... or I'd be passing out *Chick* tracks, and unloading my hoards of other tracks that even the Churches can't pass out anymore, because folks like the ACLU are trying to have such things banned by LAW. There's currently a situation going on where the Gideon Bibles are under scrutiny into being banned from hotels and motels, and replaced with something else.

I want to thank you for helping me with my paper concerning C.S. Lewis's book "Mere Christianity". I can say what it is not and given from what I have read of C.S. Lewis, he would probably agree with me, because he talked about what he called "nasty Christains".

Nasty Christians repulse and repell people, not recruit new members. This is also one of the reasons why I am not and never have been a right-wing, Evangelical-Fundamentalist. From an early age my mother knew this about me (that it repelled me) and is one of the reasons we only visited when with various family members who attended such churches. When I left home, I never ever step foot in one again- not even when visiting family.

Wonderful thing about the Anglican Church, esp the Liberal branch. You don't know the Non-theist or Atheist Humanists from the Progressive and Liberal Christians and all that is in between. For the most part, they preach love, which is something C.S. Lewis mentioned too.

He also mentioned nasty Christians, which I think he and I could agree who to place in that catagory. You really don't want to "pick up the baton" for Knight or anyone else. It's unbecoming of you and only serves to repel and repulse people. I'm sure you can rise above that, if you really want to do so, for I have seen it in many other Christians who have learn to look in people's hearts rather then the outside, thus they spread the message of love rather than hate- Elorie being one of them.

Through C.S. Lewis's occassional arrogance, I could see he was talking about the "love of Christ", which he discuss also in "Mere Christianity". I see no love when hateful names or insenuation of names are being thrown around and it is not very pretty. In fact, it IS the biggest thing that repels people from Christianity and I, as well as some of my mentors, have said many times, if that is the definition of Christianity, I want no part of it.

So, you have been a lot of help with this second paper that is due Tuesday. I am no longer stuck on what to write about it in response to the professor's questions concerning what we agree or disagree with C.S. Lewis in his book "Mere Christianity". Thank you so very much for your help. :)

[Alisa]

I am a Biblically “born-again” Christian and neither you nor he spoke for me, nor do you speak for a lot of us.
Comprende ... obviously. ;)
I'm not arguing against your zeal for "born-again". You've shared enough that has basically told me what you know is similar to a most Christians who put more emphasis on "living" and virtually none on the prophecy sections of the Bible. Most Christians I've met usually put the emphasis on "living" but balance the other in knowing it is there and can affect our lifetime, if God so chose, but they live as anyone else does, within certain (restrictive) limits that they've placed solely upon their own living style -- and mostly they live as "silent" witnesses, until something *Biblical* comes up in a direct conversation.

You need to understand that a bible in a motel room isn’t nearly as important as the friendly face, the understanding word, the simple comfort from a truly Christian person.
I understand that... however, friendly faces in today's world don't seem to matter much any more, especially when (generic Christian) you - the friendly faced one, gets severely taken advantage of by someone seeking to feel out your life, to take serious advantage of that later, and abuse it.

When someone you think you're finding favor in their friendship, partly because the other person seemed outwardly friendly enough at first or was trying to prove themself as being *friendly* and worthy of *trust* - suddenly turns and starts making death threats or other kinds of threats, that stuff I don't take too kindly to. I've learned thru such experiences NOT to be so openly trusting any more, even tho I tend to be naturally naive. What I behave like on the exterior, may not be what the interior is thinking any more (paranoia factors kicking into high gear when those invisible radar antenna start throbbing with negative sensations).

Anyway, you (Elorie) and Mriana aren't that type of person (and I didn't write the above for reinforcement... it's just something that's bothered me for years, and I'm not yet sure how to deal with those types of people -- as if they've got a motive, and you find out later, they did have a driving motive, and one that was not on the pleasant side - look at how most pediophiles and some criminals gain the trust of children and naive adults, only to chronically *abuse* that trust factor later) -- and that's sort of drifting into a different topic completely. So...

Most reporting is unbiased (a point I am not going to argue with anyone). To combat this “Conservatives” have formed their own news groups that clearly are biased in their point of view.
Sort of. They're also providing information to their fellow Christians, because most of the reporting was one-sided, and often gave negative flavors to anything *Christian* in them, unless it was some "charity" work benefit for cancer victims.

Forgive my lack of terminology, but I don't know how to differentiate the prophetic Bible believing "born-again" Christians from the *standard* denominational (Episcopalian... Presbyterian... Baptist... Evangelical... basic Christian-Christian!) ones.

For the most part, most of the "Prophecy based" Christian people I know originally were speaking to Christians only. Somewhere over the years, the secular world grabbed on, and started listening to these same speakers. Now, there are distinct divisions being heard about and that's not really new news. It's just more being more noticed.

My belief is to let the people hear and decide for themselves. I'm just amazed Kestra and Rod have allowed these conversations to get as detailed as they *have* been! and totally grateful, because even tho I've been with these forums since 1998, me lurking thru the topics or actually posting, I still feel like a *guest* visitor in a foreign land. I understand what I believe in isn't what most others here believe in, and respect that. But there are ways of sharing such things without being so vigorously and obviously *pushy* "YOUR WRONG ALL THE TIME" about it.

the gentle and meek spirit brings hearts together more than the harsh "YOU'd better listen to ME!!" type of spirit. ;)
It's how the observer responds after that - that counts. I personally cringe and find myself being driven away from reading these topics when the rants go off the deep end, when the "Mainstream" (secular or liberal) worldview doesn't feel its voice is being heard *LOUD* enough. There are ways of saying that by emphasizing it and yet being gentle at the same time.

(sidenote - I *love* that dark-orchid font color, but it's just too light without bold-facing it... and sometimes I think it blurs more when being *bolded* because the letters don't look "solid" enough... or is that just me thinking that?)
You need to understand that a bible in a motel room isn’t nearly as important as the friendly face, the understanding word, the simple comfort from a truly Christian person.
I only mentioned the Bible in the hotel / motel rooms, because there has been an effort in recent months to have them completely removed from the hotel / motel property. Has similar connections to a Muslim feeling tainted in the same room or taxi cab with someone carrying alcohol (and that was mentioned in Glenn Beck's report at post # 63692 (http://bbs.roddenberry.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=63692#post63692). The person doesn't need to be drunk when coming into contact with the Muslim person / driver, they only need to have the alcoholic beverage within temptation's range. So it is with the Christian Bible. For years, Jewish people tolerated the Christian Bible being placed into the motels, probably because it had their own half of the Bible in there. But now, it's not *kosher* to have the Bible there at all, because the motel is favoring permission of a Christian book being put into their rooms, instead of the Koran, etc. That's what that comment was all about.


so... no one is interested in reading about Saturn's weird hexagon discovered?
Somehow, I find that more interesting than discussing "religious" things (i'm prone to being a *moody* personality... but of course, then it might be discovered that the object in question has a *religious* factor to it, if there's really a city under or within it... my initial reaction being DNA cell structure (the six sided hexagon) of a beehive cell. Sentient life-form perhaps? but it's kind of stationary (rotating in the same place), so that wouldn't make much sense...
(my *treat* to everyone-) here's the x-link to discussing Saturn's bizarre hexagon (http://bbs.roddenberry.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=63787#post63787) :)

[Kestra]

Mirana, i know that Knight ruffled your feathers, he ruffled a lot of feathers, that is his nature. be that as it may, i would appreciate it if you would refrain from calling him (or anyone else) names. please edit that part of your post, thank you.
I find it intriguing that Iran has its own version of Messiah returning, along with Israel still looking for its Messiah... and the rest of the world sits and waits trying to figure out who's gonna win this war of words (Ishmael's descendants or Isaac's). That's what I'm seeing (and I never knew about that aspect of the Muslim / Islam *spiritual* life before Iran's current President mentioned it). If people deny this is what is actually happening - then there's a problem in understanding both cultures and their belief/knowledge thereof. yes, so whose version is ‘correct’? the Islamic version or Christian? after all Islam has the Koran and it’s older than the Christian bible. the answer can’t be "because it’s in the bible." for me that doesn’t hold water, there are several different religions that believe in the return of a messiah. so whose really ‘correct’? you believe what you believe, because you believe what you believe, they believe what they believe because they believe what they believe. if you had been raised in an Islamic country which would you believe? prophesy is not ‘etched’ in stone, it is merely a roadmap of: this is what will happen if things go this way. so if one wants, one can change the direction\outcome of things.

and not Charismatic (too shy to constantly outwardly raise and praise hands); not evangelical ... or I'd be passing out *Chick* tracks, and unloading my hoards of other tracks that even the Churches can't pass out anymore, because folks like the ACLU are trying to have such things banned by LAW. There's currently a situation going on where the Gideon Bibles are under scrutiny into being banned from hotels and motels, and replaced with something else.
of all the religions on the planet, how many different denominations are out there going door to door, standing on street corners passing out chick tracks? they still come to our door, even tho we tell them we have no interests in their beliefs. darlings a minister and has told them so, and they still never leave us alone. and that just sticks in my craw, like what part of "no thank you" don't they understand? there was even once when my family and i went to the Royal Fork and one of the workers started proselytizing, i walked away, if i want to hear about someone’s religious beliefs i’ll attend their church. or come here. :) now, if i had told him to be quiet i would have been accused of taking away his "religious freedom". the thing is everyone has the Constitutional right to worship whatever religion they wish. they do not however, have the right to push those views off on the general public and that's where the issue gets clouded. for some reason they think they do. why should the Gideon bible be the exclusive in hotels? why not other religious books? i think that’s one of the things that really gets under my saddle. whenever there is a group that wants to be more inclusive, we suddenly hear the far-right religious fascists scream they’re religious freedoms are at risk. why do they think they should be the only ones allowed to spout off in public or put up only their displays in public? no one is preventing them from wearing crosses in public or worship as they wish if they so choose, that’s just hype to whip followers into a frenzy. don't just take their word for what's 'really' happening, research listen to the others views that's the only way one can be well-informed.
it's my *native* (birth) soil... but if a new planet was for moving - and it was nice enough to permanently settle there, instead, my native roots move as memories... (*grin!*) :LOL: me too!
one thing I think Knightstorm was trying to state about the whole conversations going between humanism or whatever vs. the Biblical version of things -- if it's OKAY for the non-believing side to spout off (speak) their side of life in a POV topic, BUT it's NOT okay for the other side to share (speak) as well?? i totally support the rights of everyone to share their views. the problem with religious fascists is: they don’t want to share, they want it to be only their way and they scream ‘their’ religious rights are being threatened when someone steps up to the plate and tells them they have to share. it is they who are threatening the religious rights of others and that includes your religious rights.


Over recent months, there's been in increase in various media reports against Christianity - in general.
that's what the opposing or "offended" public voices are noting with all of those lawsuits against public places (malls as well as Churches) displaying nativities with baby Jesus, and more recently with people wearing crosses for jewelry in public -- these are now becoming *public* NO-NO's (because *it* might "offend" someone).

that’s not entirely true. we are being told that by a certain group. once again, it boils down to promoting all beliefs not just one. ppl are not being prevented from wearing crosses in public, that's popycock. once again, do some research.
If this is truly a POV topic, then both sides should be *fairly* or equally presented and spoken for.
quite true. and, no one here is being prevented from voicing their view.
I inherited some of his *powers* of sight (seeing auras, precognition, spirit sense perception - communication with the *spirits*, etc.).
me too. the thing is, in all the different denominates i attended i was told such things were of the devil and not to be practiced or honed. hence part of the reason i soured on the church.
My belief is to let the people hear and decide for themselves. I'm just amazed Kestra and Rod have allowed these conversations to get as detailed as they *have* been! hey, if i didn’t i wouldn’t deserve to be the Admin of this board, nor would our mods deserve to be mods. IDIC.and totally grateful, because even tho I've been with these forums since 1998, me lurking thru the topics or actually posting, I still feel like a *guest* visitor in a foreign land. you are part of an eclectic group, everyone here has something valuable to share. ppl just have a tendency to get passionate about what they believe. it’s perfectly natural.
I understand what I believe in isn't what most others here believe in, and respect that.that’s what it’s all about, IDIC. i may not agree with all that some say, even those with like mind, i will however, defend with my last breath their right to say it. But there are ways of sharing such things without being so vigorously and obviously *pushy* "YOUR WRONG ALL THE TIME" about it. i couldn’t agree more. how might we find middle ground on this? or learn how to share what we think diplomatically? which is prolly a topic for another thread. speaking of middle ground, i subscribe to a variety of groups, from fascist neoconservative to liberal nutsies. i do admit a lot of what i read from the far right causes me to shake my head a lot, sometimes even :LOL: because they take the truth tell only half of it twist and bend it to meet their agenda. IE, right now they’re all up in arms because they claim the "loonie lefties" are trying to take away their 4th amendment rights as well as rights to worship as they want away with a new hate crimes bill for gays that is being introduced in the house. however, every now and again, i find myself agreeing with what they say and that’s why i subscribe, i’m searching for middle ground. it’s important to listen to all sides, that’s how you get fair and balanced info. that's how you learn. not all berries are sweet and juicy.


the gentle and meek spirit brings hearts together more than the harsh "YOU'd better listen to ME!!" type of spirit. ;);)
It's how the observer responds after that - that counts. I personally cringe and find myself being driven away from reading these topics when the rants go off the deep end, when the "Mainstream" (secular or liberal) worldview doesn't feel its voice is being heard *LOUD* enough. There are ways of saying that by emphasizing it and yet being gentle at the same time.
that pendulum swings both ways. one of the radio stations we listen to is Air America. and every now and again someone claiming to be minister of some Christain faith will call and go on a screaming tirade about the godless left, homosexuals etc. when i hear the things they say i find it hard to beleive they're not making a joke. i keep expecting them to say at any moment: "Live From New York, it's Saturday Night Live!"
maybe we need to have a diplomacy 101 class. it is difficult to gage the tenor of ones thoughts when all we have are words without voice influction, body language etc. we do have these niftey smiles :artist: that are of some help on occassion. just the other day i posted something tic that was misunderstood as being serious. which called for an explanaition. wuddya gonna do? :dunno2:
(sidenote - I *love* that dark-orchid font color, but it's just too light without bold-facing it... and sometimes I think it blurs more when being *bolded* because the letters don't look "solid" enough... or is that just me thinking that?)
my mind to your mind, your thoughts to my thoughts. i know what you know, i feel what you feel. :boom:…. :Oops: :D

thank you, thank you, thank you! i’ve been wanting to see the Saturn hexagon. hey check out that figure below the hexagon, it looks like an animal from a cave drawing.

[Mriana]

Mirana, i know that Knight ruffled your feathers, he ruffled a lot of feathers, that is his nature. be that as it may, i would appreciate it if you would refrain from calling him (or anyone else) names. please edit that part of your post, thank you.

She yelled at me. :cry2: I'm going to go cry. :cry2:

(See? I do get scolded too sometimes. ;) )

[Alisa]

She yelled at me. :cry2: I'm going to go cry. :cry2:

(See? I do get scolded too sometimes. ;) )
oh, please don't cry... it'll make me feel that much worse for mentioning *his* name at all! (*pout*)
I hope there's a smile on your face by now... besides, I hope I cheered you (Mriana) up in the Spherites topic, if you haven't found it already. :)

pouty me - plus I was getting a really nasty headache and sick from taking too much aspirin... I think I'm either allergic to it, or the bottle went bad before its expiration date. I got super sick a month ago with the same symptoms and reactions. Nothing was working on the headache, and it had to happen "during" that awful time of the month...

[Mriana]

I wasn't really crying, Alisa. Don't pout. I was just playing. :(

You could be allergic to asprine. I get sick to my stomach and get ringing of the ears really badly when I take even one aspirine.

Where is it in Spherites? :huh: I can't find it.

[Alisa]

I wasn't really crying, Alisa. Don't pout. I was just playing. :(
I kinda figured that out from seeing the *wink* following the other info ;)

You could be allergic to asprine. I get sick to my stomach and get ringing of the ears really badly when I take even one aspirine.
The expiration is at the end of 2008. I've never had that severe of a problem before, except when taking advil and buffered aspirin a few hours apart. then, my body rejected it. So, I stopped several years ago, AFTER the news people said that it might be bad to take both on the same day, or together.

Anyway... I just knew when my headache that wouldn't quit, just got worse and I was showing signs of dehydration (can't figure out why, since I drank enough water yesterday, unless it was part of that "toxic shock" syndrome - female u-know-what related, and I suspect that might be more of what happened, since it happened a month ago for the same reason, but not for as long... I was in transit this time... the last time, I just forgot *it* was there - cause I fell asleep before the need to make any "changes" - until more than 5 hours after the fact), I knew it might get worse... so I sort of ate very light this afternoon. Lost my applesauce and aspirin, but once it all came out, I got better. I had toast and have been fighting taking any more aspirins or Tylenol.

Where is it in Spherites? :huh: I can't find it.
you found it. When you wrote about the football follies, I knew you found the correct topic... ;)
see? now you know what things we *do* have in common... THIS is a *good* thing... :)

[Alisa]

Over recent months, there's been in increase in various media reports against Christianity - in general.
that's what the opposing or "offended" public voices are noting with all of those lawsuits against public places (malls as well as Churches) displaying nativities with baby Jesus, and more recently with people wearing crosses for jewelry in public -- these are now becoming *public* NO-NO's (because *it* might "offend" someone).

that’s not entirely true. we are being told that by a certain group. once again, it boils down to promoting all beliefs not just one. ppl are not being prevented from wearing crosses in public, that's popycock. once again, do some research.
I heard it several months ago, and on separate Tv news programs (about 2 or 3 sources, one being CNN). It was mentioned several months after the issue of banning of Muslim head-scarves (for females) in France was finalized. The issue was that in some Muslim countries, it's (now?) frowned upon for Christians to be seen in public wearing cross jewelry. So, they are either being asked to hide it under their clothes, or preferably *not* wear one at all. That's the source of where all that info came. It's sort of bothered me, because I remembered thinking that it's (the beliefs of) one's *faith* that sustains them, not what they're wearing... unless they're wearing it as a good-luck charm, which is sort of contrary to the point of what Christianity is, if that's the case. But most Christians just wear crosses, to "identify" who they are.

I only wear mine on rare occasions any more, to add variety into my boring *other* jewelry (the cheap but pretty stuff from HSN, gifts from my mom and in-law mom, too). Aside from being too lazy and undecisive about what to wear most of the time, I also made it a priority to *not* "offend" my Muslim co-worker. It was bad enough that he and an almost former supervisor (over me) had verbal clashes, because the supervisor-to-be didn't have enough manners to say courteous things such as "please" or "thank you" in most of her encounters with him; and she got me specifically in trouble for taking over one of my e-mails and rewriting it into an obnoxious tone, and then hit the "send" button before I was able to change it back to something nicer. She wanted it more concise (short and terse, but *perfect* in her mind), and said *he* didn't need to be acknowledged with a "thank you"...!! :eek2:

my reaction??? she was being *very* rude...!! and I dreaded my life after that. Fortunately, she left (sort of by force, because no one liked her -- it wasn't just me she tried to become a control freak over), and I felt compelled to apologize to the guy, because he had no idea it was *her* who rewrote my e-mail into shorter and terse terms, and ordered me to stop being so *polite* (etiquette wise) in my e-mails...!! I mean, this guy was agitated enough that if an army of samurai soldiers came in, I could totally understand where he was coming from!

Since then, things have calmed down, and it's almost sort of funny, because we both had to attend a personality class together, and we realized that he and I have similarly quiet personalities, and we're both perfectionists...! (yikes!) but he's more of a super-perfectionist, because there came a time in my life over 20 years ago where I stopped being too much of that way, when I failed to live up to my own expectations. *That* plus, it didn't help when I saw another workaholic - perfectionist, who was just like me, die (it was actually cancer that killed her, not over-working herself to death).

Anyway, back to the almost supervisor, I had enough paranoia from my ex-coworker to want to hide after my experiences between her and our other co-worker. So, even before the news about hearing about certain countries desiring to ban wearing crosses, I tried to not make it a habit of wearing mine, out of respect to our Muslim coworker. I wasn't sure where he stood on the issue, and after my other experience with the e-mail fiasco, I wasn't about to make the situation any worse. It didn't help that I'm female, and I don't know where he personally feels about that - in itself, because of things I've heard in the news, which I avoid bringing up in front of him. I'm not typecasting him either... just trying to respect his ways, and not interfere with that.


I had to mention that situation, because there's someone else (female) who I used to work with and met at a grocery store. She's also from another country, but Catholic. Still, I'm not sure if where she's originally from - if there might be any additional, unusual "customs" I'm not aware of... so, I'm writing this more to explain my sensitivity to these various quirks or issues, than because someone is of a different nationality and culture.

anyway, we greeted each other in the store with a huge *hug* (it was during the winter holidays!), and during the process her (expensive) earring fell off and neither of us could find it after that... she eventually found it later in her coat, but I never found out until months later when I met her again, in the same store... I told her I felt so horrible, that we might be better off greeting each other in a Japanese bowing fashion, instead!! :p

I was so embarrassed, but eternally grateful she found her earring (it was a gift from her hubby, which made me feel even worse than just merely awful)...! my life's *harrowing* adventures - oy!


why should the Gideon bible be the exclusive in hotels? why not other religious books? i think that’s one of the things that really gets under my saddle. whenever there is a group that wants to be more inclusive, we suddenly hear the far-right religious fascists scream they’re religious freedoms are at risk. why do they think they should be the only ones allowed to spout off in public or put up only their displays in public? no one is preventing them from wearing crosses in public or worship as they wish if they so choose, that’s just hype to whip followers into a frenzy. don't just take their word for what's 'really' happening, research listen to the others views that's the only way one can be well-informed.
Actually, the way I understand the history behind how the Gideon Bible originally got into the hotels, it was started by a group of Christians who just quietly placed them in random locations. They received requests for more from people visiting the hotels/motels explaining how bad their day or weeks were, and they opened up the only reading material, besides the check-out hours sheet, and those people took comfort in whatever it was they were reading.

So, more Christians got together and voluntarily placed more Bibles into more hotels / motels and sent more to the managers, who were also requesting them at the time. It was a *favorable* response in those years. As far as I know, no other "religion" or denominational split within "Church" beliefs stepped up to the plate and bothered doing the same. Even Jehovah's Witnesses never bothered, because they go door to door - and they will tell people that "their" Bible is different than the standard one used in most denominational Churches.

Anyway, it was only AFTER 2001, and probably more closer to the recent past 2 or 3 years, where some Muslims started complaining about the Koran not being placed in the hotels / motels... well... that's probably because the people living here who belief in the Koran, never put them into those places for whatever the reasons... was it Competition? or the sheer presence of the Bible tainting the room? I don't know. And based on what I have heard, no one's ever volunteered an answer, either.

you are part of an eclectic group, everyone here has something valuable to share. ppl just have a tendency to get passionate about what they believe. it’s perfectly natural.
*thank you*... :)
:rhug:

I inherited some of his *powers* of sight (seeing auras, precognition, spirit sense perception - communication with the *spirits*, etc.).

me too. the thing is, in all the different denominates i attended i was told such things were of the devil and not to be practiced or honed. hence part of the reason i soured on the church.
well, when I first heard people doing that to me (personally), I just kept quiet and stopped talking about those things. they obviously *highly* recommended I repent from such experiences, so when some of those "powers" continued, I just never talked any further about them (the few times I did was when I got "commanded" to repent, and *prayed* over to have the "demons" attacking me go away).

the one that was most disturbing to me was the precognition, because it often startled me when the events would re-occur for real, which was actually the 2nd time within my mind. I do like the time-delay theory about it, tho... that was interesting... time-shifting humans... :D

anyway, for whatever the reason, the frequency of precognitive events diminished, but never went completely away.

As for auras, I got tired of hearing about possibly developing glaucoma, and the eye doctor confirmed I didn't have any symptoms (of it during or any of the many years after seeing such halos) around street lamps and even energy fields around tree lines. I can see the energy lines around my fingers, but not as distinctly as the Kirlan (sp?) photography photos show.

Spirit Sense perception has always stayed with me. It never left. The more charismatic Christians consider that as the Holy Spirit speaking within me (not as voices in my head, but as random thoughts or those inner-gut *feeling* sensations that just won't go away). My mom used to believe she could communicate with a friend of hers, and they'd be thinking the same thoughts at the same time, until one of them called the other on the phone and asked... so... they'd be carrying on back and forth about their "ESP"...

I thought I could discern when a friendly or evil spirit was around, and my *sense perception feelings* about certain people and situations were usually accurate, until 2001. September 11, 2001 just totally threw my spiritual perceptions out of sync and into emotional turmoil and distraught; and it took a long while before I was able to feel and confirm those "radar" sensations again. :(

So, when I see other (average) Christians, whom I encounter on a daily basis start going into a too trusting of a complete stranger mode... I cringe, because if I start hearing or seeing tell-tale signs of something that's not quite *right* (out of sync or sorts, not jiving as it should), I really don't want to see my "fellow" Christian get hurt, from using that over confidence factor.
Faith is one thing, but use discernment (or some common sense! especially if they're being *conned*) *for Pete's sake!*

sorry for the length of this... :o

[Mriana]

You know, I'm not sure what the big deal is about Gideon Bibles. The last hotel I stayed in a couple years ago, with whom that is now my second ex-husband. I didn't even noticed if there was one there or not. I really didn't pay any attention. It was my honeymoon anyway. :LOL: And yes, we did have the honeymoon suite, but who cares about a Bible on your honeymoon? We were there for a few days and nights, so yes we did unpack and go through the draws. You would think, being the heart of the Bible Belt we would have noticed one, but we didn't. We weren't looking for one though. It was a very nice hotel too, with a bottle of champagne in the mini fridge along with some other goodies in the fridge. Free continental breakfast along with three Branson shows of our choice- we ditched the last one, but I'm not telling why. :HEHE: You know, I still don't get what the big deal is about the mirror though, even after I asked my husband what the deal was, because it's not like you really use that mirror to watch yourself sleep. Who wants to watch themselves sleep? Um... never mind. Figure that one out for yourselves. :blush: Oh and go ahead and laugh all you want. After all he did, doesn't mean I get it though. :dunno2:

[Elorie Alton]

You know, I still don't get what the big deal is about the mirror though, even after I asked my husband what the deal was

It's for those who want to take the scenic route.

Elorie

[Mriana]

It's for those who want to take the scenic route.

Elorie


Oh Kay! I'd rather ask him, "Do you remember what I taught you, Imzadi?" I think mental connections are better than any scenic routes.

[Alisa]

:)
first of all, *KUDOS to CNN* for rebroadcasting Glenn Beck's Tuesday program (aired March 27, 2007 - 19:00:00, ET) from last week!! Very Important story being tracked in development--
"Is Sharia Law Gaining a Foothold in the U.S.?"...


Originally posted by Mriana:
You know, I still don't get what the big deal is about the mirror though, even after I asked my husband what the deal was... Who wants to watch themselves sleep? Um... never mind. Figure that one out for yourselves.

Originally posted by Elorie Alton:
It's for those who want to take the scenic route.
:eek2: *cough!!*
not going there...! (OMG!) that's where the *traditional* vampire legends on reflections in mirrors come in handy! :D

Mriana, it wasn't in the Poconos of Pennsylvania was it?? I used to get house decorating mags in college, and the ads were in the back of the magazines all the time... so, the ads inspired me want to go there for the horse-back riding (real horses, BTW!), but my hubby was allergic to the animals and I was allergic to their hay, so we ended up at the shore (oh wow, real exciting - not...!) Anyway, after hearing a story that got reinforced by another source years later from a personal friend of ours at the same place, I was sort of glad we went to the boring ocean shore, instead! *whew!!*

There's a story a former coworker of mine told me about some friends of his who did go to the beautiful Poconos resort area... they went there on their first honeymoon - not sure how different one set of rooms was from the other, but... many years later, they returned and rented some videos from the manager's desk -- only to discover that *they* were one of the couples in the VIDEO!! It was snippets of their first honeymoon, courtesy of whichever motel lodge they were staying at... had mirrors, the heart-shaped tub, etc., and them in all their glory... I'm not sure if they sued the place after seeing that, either.

I've heard just about everything in my years, and that one just made me start looking for any hidden cameras in the hotel rooms and bathrooms, etc., after that! We did stay at one motel (which actually had the sci-fi channel!) that had a huge mirror across the entire back wall... yes, I was looking for any 2-way hidden peep-holes thru it, before crawling back into the room!


I want to thank you for helping me with my paper concerning C.S. Lewis's book "Mere Christianity". I can say what it is not and given from what I have read of C.S. Lewis, he would probably agree with me, because he talked about what he called "nasty Christains".
...
Through C.S. Lewis's occassional arrogance, I could see he was talking about the "love of Christ", which he discuss also in "Mere Christianity". I see no love when hateful names or insenuation of names are being thrown around and it is not very pretty. In fact, it IS the biggest thing that repels people from Christianity and I, as well as some of my mentors, have said many times, if that is the definition of Christianity, I want no part of it.

So, you have been a lot of help with this second paper that is due Tuesday. I am no longer stuck on what to write about it in response to the professor's questions concerning what we agree or disagree with C.S. Lewis in his book "Mere Christianity". Thank you so very much for your help.
well, I'm not exactly sure what I said, but you're welcome...
I'm not the stereo-typical hard-core (Biblical prophecy believing) "born-again" Christian... as that Poconos story above tells! :p
... and it gets *worse* if you include the situation I've described below, too (but at least I'm being *honest*)... :o

You really don't want to "pick up the baton" for Knight or anyone else. It's unbecoming of you and only serves to repel and repulse people. I'm sure you can rise above that, if you really want to do so...
trust me, there is one weakness in my life that is such a departure from the hard-core *norm* that it boggles my mind on why it's stayed with me this long... I'm sure certain Christians out there would label it as an indulgence or humongous "sin" worthy of repenting and being *prayed over* with the hands on healing, etc... But when (generic) you find yourself stuck with a sympathetic vampire in your head, who ends up being your hero --like *ALL* the time-- in your worst dream-sleep nightmares, what would (generic) you do?

The hard core Christian community would highly suggest repenting from the images being there and request "by the Power of the Holy Spirit and the *blood* of the LAMB, in Jesus Christ's NAME" -- to order those demons to depart "once and for all of time... well, that was done - several times... didn't work. The *creature* I created is part of me. It's the only part of my life that's been prayed about/for, and yet "God" has allowed it to continue returning...

I think there's a reason for it, but haven't yet figured out *what* that reason is, and I doubt if it's a test of my willpower over "sin". I think it's more of a knowledge based thing than the whole "sin" issue (keeping things in perspective there, too). And at least twice a month, it's always there longer than at other times with a sadness of soul attached as well as other emotions.

I've tried to pick this "vampire" hero guy apart psychologically during normal daylight/night hours... and it's pointless to interpret scary themed nightmares; those are obvious, and I'm not the only person who has such sleep horrors; so I recently found out that has such nightmares (must be a *girl* thing)... and yet this manifestation of eternal sadness is a hero, too - come to rescue the poor damsel in distress - all the time. That's partly why I've wanted to discuss it in the BLADE topic (http://bbs.roddenberry.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=54342#post54342)... sort of fits with more symbolisms than one, in there.


oh, and just to reassure the most liberal (or romantic) person reading that topic, sorry, I just can't hold back... it's probably the only time I'm in super-rare form on the *punny* (funny) side. It's also one of the few subject areas I discovered years ago, that Dot and I have in common... wow! Except she's more knowledgeable on the subject than I am.

It's also from years of studying those legends engrained within that (generic) you just can't totally shake, even when you try. When I tried to force the *hero* (vampire that I created) to go away, the other demons (usually humans I grew up with in school) in the nightmares became worse monsters. Go figure... something is definitely out of sync!

Yes... see? I've admitted it. I'm guilty! :p
not the stereo-typical hard-core Christian. This is what makes me *human* and fallible.
but at the same time, I'm not totally *proud* of it, because it's just the only area I've never understood why it won't go away. It's also probably something most people who *are* harder-core Christians won't admit, because of an image factor they are trying to put up on the exterior as a shield.

There is another story attached to that *hero* creation one, that I'd prefer continuing in the actual BLADE topic, than here. It has to do with overcoming your weaknesses, but fits more in that topic because of content/subject matter. Of course, you'd never see me in one of those creepy *goth* nightclubs (strange things really do happen in those places! and that's because some of those folks take that stuff too seriously).. that's where I draw the boundary line. I may have a few *goth* friends, whom I personally know in real-life locally, but I'm just not into the whole costume and (toothy) make-up thing like they are (and they are really nice / sweet personalities!). I've got my own (fanged) teeth problems, so I'm sort of sensitive over that. ;)

and Mriana, if you ever share the above story with your C.S.Lewis teacher, if she's as dedicated to Christianity as I might suspect or *think* she is, her jaw just might drop in shock...
I'm sure she'd be praying for my "soul" after hearing about it, or reading any of these topics (as most any other seriously *praying* Christian would be)...
however, if she does hear, and etc., please reassure her that "God" knows where my heart *really* is, He's taught and *pruned* me for over 25 years on it, and that's what counts the most. :)

[Kestra]

:LOL: Mriana, are you sure you're not still a virgin? ;)

She yelled at me. :cry2: I'm going to go cry. :cry2:

(See? I do get scolded too sometimes. ;) ) :tthere: everyone has a slip of the finger once and a while.

Alisa, i'll answer you later, right now i have to get ready to take my mom to a matinée. see everyone l8r.

[Mriana]

not going there...! (OMG!) that's where the *traditional* vampire legends on reflections in mirrors come in handy! :D

Oh me love vampires. :D

Mriana, it wasn't in the Poconos of Pennsylvania was it??

No, I guess you missed it, but I said Branson, as in Branson Missouri. In the heart of the Bible Belt too. And if there were cameras, they had to get a kick out of my nievete' (I can't find even nieve in the Webster dictionary. So forgive the misspelling.)

well, I'm not exactly sure what I said, but you're welcome...
I'm not the stereo-typical hard-core (Biblical prophecy believing) "born-again" Christian... as that Poconos story above tells! :p
... and it gets *worse* if you include the situation I've described below, too

It was many things, even what you did not say, including bringing up Knight.

trust me, there is one weakness in my life that is such a departure from the hard-core *norm* that it boggles my mind on why it's stayed with me this long... I'm sure certain Christians out there would label it as an indulgence or humongous "sin" worthy of repenting and being *prayed over* with the hands on healing, etc... But when (generic) you find yourself stuck with a sympathetic vampire in your head, who ends up being your hero --like *ALL* the time-- in your worst dream-sleep nightmares, what would (generic) you do?

The hard core Christian community would highly suggest repenting from the images being there and request "by the Power of the Holy Spirit and the *blood* of the LAMB, in Jesus Christ's NAME" -- to order those demons to depart "once and for all of time... well, that was done - several times... didn't work. The *creature* I created is part of me. It's the only part of my life that's been prayed about/for, and yet "God" has allowed it to continue returning...

I find those dreams are the best! :D But then again, there is a little secret, only divulge to two men, that gets my motor going too. I hardly see the sin in that. :D I see no reason to repent about it either. Then again, there seems to be a certain man (I will not tell who he is) in my dreams who also knows about it too. :LOL: Still no sin in that to repent about either, even if said man is a real man in life. No, not Riker/Frakes. I wake up with a smile too, both times and each time it gets into more detail. Thus how I know the man of my dreams knows the secret- but only in my dreams of course. Still there's nothing to be ashamed of in all of that though. Shoot! The guy might even be flattered if he knew, but I'm not going to tell him. However, I would probably be embarrassed if he were to ever find out. Yeah, yeah, I know it sounds like a childish game, but trust me, I have I my reasons for not saying anything. Oh, I should make note, we do go out to a VERY nice place for dinner, so it's not JUST sexual.

I think there's a reason for it, but haven't yet figured out *what* that reason is, and I doubt if it's a test of my willpower over "sin". I think it's more of a knowledge based thing than the whole "sin" issue (keeping things in perspective there, too). And at least twice a month, it's always there longer than at other times with a sadness of soul attached as well as other emotions.

Why resist willpower when it's just a dream? Sex is nothing to be ashamed of, esp if it's just dream or fantasy. It's a perfectly normal and part of being human. Now, if you went around telling everyone every detail of your dreams, THAT could be a problem. There are just some dreams I can not tell everyone, maybe one person that I know will not tell anyone else, esp if it is a good one. :D

I've tried to pick this "vampire" hero guy apart psychologically during normal daylight/night hours... and it's pointless to interpret scary themed nightmares; those are obvious, and I'm not the only person who has such sleep horrors; so I recently found out that has such nightmares (must be a *girl* thing)... and yet this manifestation of eternal sadness is a hero, too - come to rescue the poor damsel in distress - all the time. That's partly why I've wanted to discuss it in the BLADE topic (http://bbs.roddenberry.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=54342#post54342)... sort of fits with more symbolisms than one, in there.

What is so scary about it? I'm not going to get Fruedian on you, but I am curious why you find it frightening. Personally, I've always found vampires appealling romantically, even as a child.

It's also from years of studying those legends engrained within that (generic) you just can't totally shake, even when you try. When I tried to force the *hero* (vampire that I created) to go away, the other demons (usually humans I grew up with in school) in the nightmares became worse monsters. Go figure... something is definitely out of sync!

Ah! That's probably where your "demons" are coming from- some sort of traumatic insident in your childhood. I'm just not sure why your mind chose a vampire. I can think of worse "monsters", like Chucky and Freddy. The ads for such movies give me nightmeres- in part because it's humans who do it. Freddy is human, or was, and so was Chucky. Not mention Psycho.

Yes... see? I've admitted it. I'm guilty! :p
not the stereo-typical hard-core Christian. This is what makes me *human* and fallible.
but at the same time, I'm not totally *proud* of it, because it's just the only area I've never understood why it won't go away. It's also probably something most people who *are* harder-core Christians won't admit, because of an image factor they are trying to put up on the exterior as a shield.

Again, what is there to feel guilty or even unproud about? It's JUST a dream and part of being human. I say, stop worrying about it and just enjoy the dream, dear. OK, I'm not proud enough to devulge my dreams, but it's certainly nothing to be ashamed of. Personally, I smile, enjoy it, and just let it be- even if it is a dream about a vampire or the man of my dreams. The vampire one will never be real and I seriously doubt I will ever have the man of my dreams in reality, even if he is handsome. :)

and Mriana, if you ever share the above story with your C.S.Lewis teacher, if she's as dedicated to Christianity as I might suspect or *think* she is, her jaw just might drop in shock...
I'm sure she'd be praying for my "soul" after hearing about it, or reading any of these topics (as most any other seriously *praying* Christian would be)...
however, if she does hear, and etc., please reassure her that "God" knows where my heart *really* is, He's taught and *pruned* me for over 25 years on it, and that's what counts the most. :)

I'm not going to share that story, but um... there is something you probably don't understand about Religious scholars... Most are a different breed of character. They may study the Bible and go to a particular church (maybe even the one they have spent their life in), but their beliefs, if any, or not that of the common people. Nothing shocks them anymore, esp in a Secular facility, and I seriously doubt that your story would lead her to get on her knees and start praying for your immortal soul. No insult intended.

Have you noticed all the sex in the Bible? Do you know where the word testimony came from? Trust me, if you don't know already, you'll be shocked to hear the answer to the last.

[Alisa]

Oh me love vampires. :D
then i'd suggest take a nature hike on over to and join in on the rest of the BLADE topic (http://bbs.roddenberry.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=54342#post54342)... we're sort of beginning to discuss the dynamic, new BLOOD TIES Tv series -- something I sort of stumbled upon at the right time and moment from the very first episode. So, I'll be taking some of these quotes over there, instead. ;)

Why resist willpower when it's just a dream? Sex is nothing to be ashamed of, esp if it's just dream or fantasy. It's a perfectly normal and part of being human.
ummm, ooops! it must have been the Poconos mirror *bit* that triggered that answer... Owww!
(I'm doing those awful vamp puns again!) ...try this again...

Why resist willpower when it's just a dream?
...
What is so scary about it? I'm not going to get Fruedian on you, but I am curious why you find it frightening. Personally, I've always found vampires appealling romantically, even as a child.
then you were further advanced than I ever was during my Dark Shadows days... and Barnabas wasn't a romantic figure to me, but more of a father figure. I never saw him as romantic, even when the 1991 min-series remake came along. Now, the 1991 remake of Jeremiah, Barnabas' brother, was *romantic*...!! OMG!! I didn't realize exactly how much, until I found out that Adrian Paul (Duncan McLeod) of "Highlander" played Jeremiah; and ut-oh, the images became permanently etched into that brain. (LOL) :p
:faint2:

What is so scary about it? I'm not going to get Fruedian on you, but I am curious why you find it frightening.
hmmm... s/b "Freudian" (my computer spell check keeps underlining it).

clarification... when I sleep-sleep I have nightmares... school - doing homework assignments that I just can never seem to get finished on time...! or kids doing horrible things (chasing, beating) to other kids and trying to bring me into the center of attention, too. That sort of nightmare. I was just talking about this the other day, to someone else, and she had the same types of nightmares!

In comes the need for that handsome *hero* to rescue the damsel in distress! He guards the distressed female and protects her from the evil kids. Never completed homework is another issue. That, he can't intercede on. so, one more time-

Why resist willpower when it's just a dream?
my particular and apparent *obsession* with the specific vampire I created is not a "dream". He's part of a script that I've rewritten hundreds of scenes over to compile into that one movie (a real movie-movie) -- I had wanted to write about and actually share with the world on Hollywood film/video... but every time I searched for the perfect actor, they ended up having some sort of problem in their real life. So, I kept searching and refined the character. Eventually, I put him on hiatus.

a lonnnnnnnng hiatus. He needed it, because he also ended up getting sort of stuck in one of his memories with his 2nd favorite incarnation girlfriend back several hundreds of years ago, when his castle was taken over by a bunch of madmen fighting a continental war... (read what you want into the inspirations behind that whole "news" scenario).

Anyway, it got complicated. He was trying to protect her. The scene keeps changing a little bit each time, but the jist of it is there. I could stop his memory sequences at any time, but the girl is one of his favorites, because she became his intellectual equal; and he can't seem to comprehend how he could admire a *true* born-again Christian to such an intense degree, when their lives are so vastly different on spiritual issues. And the oddity part is, her compassion for his eternal soul is what draws her ever closer to him.

In a way, he is me (and that's made me wonder how much of a male personality am I harboring...?!). He is that part of me that I put into a real character script-form, who's personality has a few quirks... He also met up with another character (also born-again Christian, and a relative to his former *beloved*) in modern times, and is currently studying Bible prophecies before the AntiChrist appears. I have most of the script in my head, and haven't put it down on paper - that's why it's stuck over and over and repeating. Remember, it's fictional.... not real. So any coincidences to current events is just a *fictional* story, and nothing more. It's inspired by current real news, but it is still just a story.

please, I'd be more than happy to discuss it further in the BLADE topic...
it's more naturally closer to his native turf over there, than here... :D

[Mriana]

WAIT! :ROLF4: A vampire is a born-again Christian? Tell me I'm confused.

[Elorie Alton]

In a way, he is me (and that's made me wonder how much of a male personality am I harboring...?!). He is that part of me that I put into a real character script-form, who's personality has a few quirks... He also met up with another character (also born-again Christian, and a relative to his former *beloved*) in modern times, and is currently studying Bible prophecies before the AntiChrist appears. I have most of the script in my head, and haven't put it down on paper - that's why it's stuck over and over and repeating. Remember, it's fictional.... not real. So any coincidences to current events is just a *fictional* story, and nothing more. It's inspired by current real news, but it is still just a story.

Alisa as a “writer” I can tell you that it’s not a male personality in you, but rather your own personality in the character you are creating. And even thought there isn’t much on paper but in your head you are still creating a character just the same way that writers do. A part of me is in every character I write, it’s a kind of connection with the reader, it’s what gives your characters prospective. I wouldn’t worry about it at all.

And one last thing, if you can write it in your head your can write it on paper.

Elorie

[Alisa]

WAIT! :ROLF4: A vampire is a born-again Christian? Tell me I'm confused.
no. you're *morphing* the ideas together, without knowing the whole storyline. :p
He's studying the (Bible and other) prophecies with a born-again Christian, who is a relative of his former sweetheart *friend*...

I did say, it's complicated... :D
:SHS:

...and if this needs to be said, it was my way of reconciling the entire vampire legends into something that I could live at peace with (for myself). Toss out the hideous demon make-up...
(his initials = MD... I thought I might enhance that to MAD, just as a joke!) He may have a nasty temper at times, but he only uses that when absolutely necessary, any more. He's grown with much wisdom in his old age. ;)


Alisa as a “writer” I can tell you that it’s not a male personality in you, but rather your own personality in the character you are creating.
that I *know*... scary isn't it? (I'm joking!) :p
funny thing is - is that when I create the characters and think of their various situations, and end up "dreaming" in real sleep about them - I dream in vivid, living color; stereophonic sound, and feel what each feels - physically and emotionally... and it can either be from the male character or the female ones...

only a few weeks ago did I actually taste and smell food in one of my night-dreams. It was weird! I must have been hungry.

And even thought there isn’t much on paper but in your head you are still creating a character just the same way that writers do. A part of me is in every character I write, it’s a kind of connection with the reader, it’s what gives your characters prospective. I wouldn’t worry about it at all.

And one last thing, if you can write it in your head your can write it on paper.
actually, it was on paper. I destroyed them, because of the amount of re-writes I kept making. So, because of my "perfectionist" tendencies, whatever came out in the future, would do so in one smooth, swoop. That's why I put an all stop on it, and probably also why some of it ends up in my real dream sleep. Anyway, if it ever did get put onto paper, it won't be on a computer that's easily accessible. too many bot programs out there trying to steal the info... another safe-guard on why it's sitting in my head, instead for the duration... and, I'm not really sure I seriously want to pursue finishing it as I originally intended years ago. I have one of those moody personalities that keeps changing the decision to go with it or not...

and how much of it created into a *believable* plot, isn't really the goal or issue. It's more a case of how far do I want to take certain plots within it -- and those are the areas where I keep getting indecisive over. All of the encouragement in the world won't help in me getting it out of my head. It's me and my moodiness, that's the problem. The moodiness is also one of those behavioral things that I thought might be more helpful in the Preconceptions and Behavior topic (too). :)

[Mriana]

OK. Sorry I laughed. Elorie is right though. If you can dream it, you can write it.

Everything I write has a little of me in it, both fiction and non-fiction.

[Kestra]

I heard it several months ago, and on separate Tv news programs (about 2 or 3 sources, one being CNN). It was mentioned several months after the issue of banning of Muslim head-scarves (for females) in France was finalized. The issue was that in some Muslim countries, it's (now?) frowned upon for Christians to be seen in public wearing cross jewelry.
so we’re not talking US? i just don’t know what’s wrong with some ppl\countries. so Muslim women want to wear headscarves? so what? sheesh.
my reaction??? she was being *very* rude...!! and I dreaded my life after that. Fortunately, she left (sort of by force, because no one liked her -- it wasn't just me she tried to become a control freak over), and I felt compelled to apologize to the guy, because he had no idea it was *her* who rewrote my e-mail into shorter and terse terms, and ordered me to stop being so *polite* (etiquette wise) in my e-mails...!!
oh brother, what an idiot. i’m glad she was forced out. there’s nothing wrong with politeness, (it’s a form of diplomacy), even in a relationship. darling and i are always telling each other, ‘please’, ‘thank you’, ‘no thank you’. and we’ve been together 18 years this month.
Actually, the way I understand the history behind how the Gideon Bible originally got into the hotels, it was started by a group of Christians who just quietly placed them in random locations. They received requests for more from people visiting the hotels/motels explaining how bad their day or weeks were, and they opened up the only reading material, besides the check-out hours sheet, and those people took comfort in whatever it was they were reading.
i didn’t know that, that’s cool, so what’s the problem then? why are they being forced out? i remember seeing an epi in Streets of San Francisco where Steve Keller was protecting a prostitute and they were in a motel together, while he sat watch all night, he read a Gideon bible (silently) as he kept watch.

Anyway, it was only AFTER 2001, and probably more closer to the recent past 2 or 3 years, where some Muslims started complaining about the Koran not being placed in the hotels / motels... well... that's probably because the people living here who belief in the Koran, never put them into those places for whatever the reasons... was it Competition? or the sheer presence of the Bible tainting the room? I don't know. And based on what I have heard, no one's ever volunteered an answer, either.
such silliness, it’s a world gone mad. if they want the Koran in the motels why not place them? it’s been a while since i’ve stayed in a motel, i don’t remember seeing a bible in the drawer, altho, i wasn’t looking for it.


*thank you*... :)
:rhug:

I only speak the truth.
well, when I first heard people doing that to me (personally), I just kept quiet and stopped talking about those things. they obviously *highly* recommended I repent from such experiences, so when some of those "powers" continued, I just never talked any further about them (the few times I did was when I got "commanded" to repent, and *prayed* over to have the "demons" attacking me go away). isn’t that just too weird? that’s something i never understood about the church. i remember the minister reading and preaching about ‘gifts of the spirit’ and how prevalent they’ll become in end times, and "won’t that be wonderful! " the congregation all said "Amen". and yet when one in their midst displayed a gift of the spirit they were condemned as being of the devil. according to my mom, a person can become ‘possessed’ against their will, without their knowledge, even back then when i believed as they i saw that as rubbish.
well, when I first heard people doing that to me (personally), I just kept quiet and stopped talking about those things. they obviously *highly* recommended I repent from such experiences, so when some of those "powers" continued, I just never talked any further about them (the few times I did was when I got "commanded" to repent, and *prayed* over to have the "demons" attacking me go away) . fortunately, i never was subjected to that. i too keep relatively quiet about it. tho i am an adult now, and once in a while i’ll be open about it.

the one that was most disturbing to me was the precognition, because it often startled me when the events would re-occur for real, which was actually the 2nd time within my mind. I do like the time-delay theory about it, tho... that was interesting... time-shifting humans... :D
i had\have those too, sometimes i’d see things seconds b4 they happened, like Daniel in that game with Teal’q when Daniel could see the next move 2 sec b4 it happened. i would see it as tho i was actually in the scene.
anyway, for whatever the reason, the frequency of precognitive events diminished, but never went completely away. it’s sort of slowed for me as well, but i took classes to learn how to control it, so that could be the reason. i have dreams, i don’t always understand them, i had lots and lots of them from various perspectives (Spirit lake, on a logging road etc) months b4 and after Mt. St Helens blew. it wasn’t until the photos\personal stories came out that i fully understood the symbolisms in my dreams. i found them (the stories) disturbing, because when i have precognitive dreams i’m always one of the people who will have the experience. i was even in Truman’s house in one dream.

As for auras, I got tired of hearing about possibly developing glaucoma, and the eye doctor confirmed I didn't have any symptoms (of it during or any of the many years after seeing such halos) around street lamps and even energy fields around tree lines. I can see the energy lines around my fingers, but not as distinctly as the Kirlan (sp?) photography photos show.
i started seeing auras in my mid 30’s, i had taken a class on seeing auras. i was in the bathtub, i saw my own vividly, i was staring at my feet when i saw a green\yellow glow (like stop lights in the fog) outline my feet. soon the whole inside of the tub was a beautiful green. ever since, if i stare at someone or thing i can see their aura. when the light is right, i see the auras of the crows when they fly around our back yard, some have beautiful deep purple auras, some are blue. they’re quite pretty.

Oh me love vampires. :D. me too! there's a station with a series called "Sex-TV" on late night where they discuss various sexual issues. one time they did one on vampires and how they are purposly sexually\sensually protrayed. it was intersting.

that I *know*... scary isn't it? (I'm joking!) :p
funny thing is - is that when I create the characters and think of their various situations, and end up "dreaming" in real sleep about them - I dream in vivid, living color; stereophonic sound, and feel what each feels - physically and emotionally... and it can either be from the male character or the female ones...

only a few weeks ago did I actually taste and smell food in one of my night-dreams. It was weird! I must have been hungry. naw, not scary, just plain fun. when i write my characters come alive in my mind. i can feel thier emotons, hear their thoughts etc. i haven't dreamt them yet (at least i don't thnk so) they do however command attention and 'dance' around in my brain in different scenarios. it's fun.

[Mriana]

isn’t that just too weird? that’s something i never understood about the church. i remember the minister reading and preaching about ‘gifts of the spirit’ and how prevalent they’ll become in end times, and "won’t that be wonderful! " the congregation all said "Amen". and yet when one in their midst displayed a gift of the spirit they were condemned as being of the devil. according to my mom, a person can become ‘possessed’ against their will, without their knowledge, even back then when i believed as they i saw that as rubbish.

You know, I never did believe like that (demons, demon possession, and alike that is), even as a child, and trust me, I saw a lot of psychological abuse (by humans) too in my great uncle and grandmother's churches (mostly my great uncle's), which as I said scared me into wanting to run the other direction. Then again, I was also exposed to different philosophies too as a child. I learned to think for myself at a very early age and some of the adults sometimes didn't like it.

me too! there's a station with a series called "Sex-TV" on late night where they discuss various sexual issues. one time they did one on vampires and how they are purposly sexually\sensually protrayed. it was intersting.

We don't get that channel here, that I know of.

[Kestra]

it's CKVU channel 10, sometimes they call it Global.

[Mriana]

I don't have a clue. Is it satellite?

[Kestra]

no it's Canadian we have analog.

[Mriana]

Oh. :( I well I don't think we can get it, even if we asked for it then. There is something else I want too from N.Y., but this area won't show it. :eyeroll:

[Alisa]

had to mention this, cause I heard a report on the radio about how someone wants to make it a law for everyone to start hauling their plastic recyclables back to the stores, so the stores can have the manufacturers pick up the garbage and recycling them that way -- or something to those words.

On the one hand, this could be helpful to teach kids how to respect their environment, or at least learn how to get a return deposit back for items used and "cleaned" and returned. It might inspire them to save their garbage for the return deposits if nothing else. Things they so love to toss onto other people's properties, because the kids are too lazy to bring it home, clean it up, and put it in their own recycling containers; unless of course it's the parents who are encouraging them to toss their garbage into someone else's yard, so that other person gets to pay the price of cleaning up the *c**p* instead of the parents of these wayward kids.

I still think of that Native American Indian commercial of the chief canoeing up the river, and some jerk tossing their trash at his feet, and a tear is seen falling from his eye. Most of today's Native Americans (the elders who lived thru the careless trashing garbage days of the 1960's and 1970's) understand the value of nature and the abuse of destroying that harmony between the earth and what it provides to all of us.

Anyway, people should have put it into practice a long time ago on how to properly recycle the plastics and plastic bottles so that there wouldn't be any crisis of plastics in our garbage dumps, etc. But par usual, it takes a crisis to alert the entire planet to something that people so carelessly don't even think or want to think about. Nature dies off, and so do our eco-systems.


The biggest problem I see of recycling the same plastics back to the companies that made them for laundries or soda packaging, etc., is that after a certain length of time, the materials within the plastics leak out into the product it is supposed to be containing. THAT is NOT a good thing.

I've experienced this personally with bottled spring water. The water carbonizes (like seltzer water) because contaminants from the plastics or cleaning solutions leak of the container and get into the liquids it carries. People have gotten violently sick because of this. I was one of them. My mom got violently sick as well, and she was several states away... but both of us were recycling our water containers for newer supplies in the same containers.

During drought seasons, we were trying to sparingly clean our squirt water bottles that we carried for travel purposes, and if those bottles weren't completely rinsed from dishwashing detergents, the residue stayed behind on the plastics and eventually leaked into the water. That's what caused some folks to get deathly ill. The other reason is something I haven't yet figured out. If I take purified water and recycle the same bottle by refilling it with more water - be it spring or purified water, it doesn't matter after 2 or 3 recycling uses. For some reason, something residual left within the containers is causing illness to sprout forth -- (germs?? bacteria??) from one of the sources, old water mixed with new water source, or your own germs?

It causes some sort of problem in the newly refilled bottle, and eventually (generic "you") your stomach feels hollow and eventually can't hold any food or liquids down - and you get violently ill. I've heard similar symptoms of that being called under the noro-virus, which is often caused by bad contaminants in the water supplies. I only found that out because when I mentioned it to an expert in the field of *hazardous* contaminants, that person gave me a chart of what levels to look for where water becomes too toxic to drink. It was also after I had gotten seriously ill twice within less than a 2-month time span, that I had to stop drinking from the same plastic containers I had been using for at least about a year or more.

oh yeah, and just to be clear on that, I was too sick to drag myself to the doctor's office, so I called up and the nurse had to make suggestions on what to eat in order to keep simple water, ginger ale and crackers from continuing to come back up (vomiting). Old home remedies stopped working in my situation, and ginger is supposed to be helpful for upset stomachs... it didn't work. I became dehydrated, and couldn't stay or get hydrated no matter what remedy I tried (for 2 solid days), until the rice diet was recommended.

However, even with genetically modified engineering of foods, now, some rices might be contaminated from that type of processing. It's becoming a never-ending battle.


I think this whole subject of recycling and genetically modified food processing is extremely important for manufacturers to understand, because if the plastics *are* deteriorating in some form after so many months or uses, the new refills of soda or whatever digestible liquids aren't going to be drinkable after a while. ...and if more people get sickened from using these products in this manner, there's most likely going to be more lawsuits occurring than there currently are. Trans-fats aren't going to be the ONLY item in question any more. And this is going to affect people long-term, especially if anyone plans on going into space travel to other planets...!! :eek2:

Maybe refilling soap dispensers works for about 20 or 30 uses, but even those get disgustingly crummy after a while. People need to be educated on these matters, or we're going to head into much bigger problems health-wise, than just having an environmental crunch! :(

[Alisa]

my goodness! Talk about timing... :eek4:

no sooner did I write up my comments about recycling and the potential consequences that might result from recycling contaminated plastics or plastics losing their molecular structures and people getting sick from such materials leaking into the liquid drinks contained within those containers... and I came across the following article moments later (obviously, elsewhere on the internet!).

(Please click on link in article title for complete details.)
posted on the Telegraph.co.uk web site...
"Superbug kills almost as many as die on roads " (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/04/06/nbugs06.xml)

By Celia Hall, Medical Editor
Last Updated: 1:22am BST 06/04/2007

Deaths from the hospital superbug, Clostridium difficile, are fast approaching the number of road fatalities, an expert says today.

He says that patients due to have routine operations should be screened for the bug in an attempt to stop the rise in infections.
...
"Control of C difficile is difficult because, unlike MRSA, alcohol hand scrubs are ineffective and its spores are resistant to routine hospital cleaning."
...
While it is known as "hospital diarrhoea" he argues that it is very common in the community. "The relative increase in community acquired C difficile far outstrips that seen in hospital. More than 13,000 cases of community acquired C difficile occur each year in the UK, three quarters of which are in people who have not been in hospital in the previous year.

"This raises the question of whether C difficile can still be thought of as a purely hospital acquired infection and whether other infection control measures are needed, such as screening people in the community before they are admitted electively," he says.
...
Clostridium difficile is a bacterium that lives in the gut and causes "hospital diarrhoea". Infection can be mild or very severe and lead to death, particularly in elderly patients.

It produces two toxins which cause the diarrhoea and damage the lining of the bowel. But not all strains have the toxins. Those affected can have a fever and a lot of pain.

Sometimes normal bacteria in the gut are disturbed. Doctors will stop antibiotics if possible to allow the normal balance to re-establish. In very severe disease, specific, strong doses of antibiotics are give to try to kill the bacterium.
yup! the biggest problem when smelling a "public" bathroom, restroom right after someone having a ripe (bowel) moment in there is done making such a stink... I think it's an airborne problem - not just something that exists in available water sources. I can't stress how many times I've had to whiff in that toxic air, and realize it's better to either hold my breath or wait until I could find a cleaner (public) bathroom! Working in medical facilities and back in normal offices, a person becomes more sensitive to these sorts of surroundings.

Even when we went deep into Amish country in Pennsylvania a few years ago, the septic people happened to be cleaning out that smelly system on that particular day, and guess who got deathly ill within a few short hours later... (me!) Spent the rest of my so-called vacation sick and recuperating from that awful experience; and my hubby got sick shortly after, too. That's always fun... 2 sickees fighting over the who gets to the only available toilet first (at home), and who gets to watch which TV shows... I think I slept most of the following 3 days, until my fever finally broke, so my hubby got the sofa and the TV.

And it's disturbing to think about that as an airborne *thing* because if the bacteria is adapting to the disinfectants in the air, that means it is getting worse for humans to protect themselves from getting sick from air and on contact viruses! If our bees (specifically the honeybees) are dying from the pesticides humans have put into the food crops, how long will it be before humans start going down that irreversible (perpetual illness) path too...?

[Mriana]

Well, I think part of it is evolving bacteria and viruses. We MIGHT be more or less immune to some of the things that killed our ancestors, but we have bacterial resistance to antibiotics. In other words, much like the Borg, "They've adapted". We have to use stronger and stronger antibiotics because new strands of the same bug, yet evolved, are becoming resistant. We aren't resistant, but the bacteria is. Whatever cell division they have gone through to adapt is probably unknown to scientists, but whatever it was, we have to find new meds. As for viruses evolving, the AIDS virus is a good example. There are so many different strands now that it makes it more difficult for scientists to find a cure for it.

What concerns me is, yesterday's smallpox vaccine might not be useful for today's smallpox, if there is ever another outbreak. It may have adapted too. Who knows, but the worse that could happen is that we get the vaccine and it wards off yesterday's smallpox, there by giving us a milder case of today's version, if it has adapted. Best case senerio- it still works and gives us complete immunity.

Good news though- it's not the end of the world just because the Spanish flu has evolved. Scientists are working on this now to prevent similar strands from making billions sick, in case of a pandemic outbreak. There are medical scientists constantly working on these things and they even scratch their heads sometimes and ask, "Now why didn't that work? It worked with the last "Naked Time"." Then somebody says, "Yeah, but this is "Naked Now". We need to check into whether or not it mutated or something and work from there." Thus, that small mutation is found and an adjustment is made in the treatment or vaccine. All is well again.

OK so that is a little hopeful in the human species, but I have full confidence that whatever plagues us now, won't plague us in a few years, maybe in a generation or two, or at least not affect us as badly, because we will figure it out somehow. Shoot! I got chicken pox, we all got chicken pox and so did our kids, but our kids' children won't get it because we have a vaccine that is given to all children now. So there is hope even with the predicted pandemic flu. They are working on that now too. So, I wouldn't worry too much.

[Alisa]

Well, I think part of it is evolving bacteria and viruses... We aren't resistant, but the bacteria is. Whatever cell division they have gone through to adapt is probably unknown to scientists, but whatever it was, we have to find new meds.
unfortunately, there also comes a time in the life of a human where the immunity system becomes immune to all the anti-biotics available out there. That's what (ultimately) killed my mom. She had a MRSA infection, and green goo in her knee that wouldn't go away or heal (and which probably spread to the rest of her internal body organs, etc.) - regardless of what she was given. Her body had so much medication inside of it, from being treated for various things over many years, that she became resistant and immune to the medication. When the doctor told her that, she gave up living and died a few days later.

OK so that is a little hopeful in the human species, but I have full confidence that whatever plagues us now, won't plague us in a few years, maybe in a generation or two, or at least not affect us as badly, because we will figure it out somehow. Shoot! I got chicken pox, we all got chicken pox and so did our kids, but our kids' children won't get it because we have a vaccine that is given to all children now.
ummm, not all of us got it. I didn't. I escaped... never had the vaccine either... :eek2: and i sat and played right next to someone who was in the middle of Chicken Pox. Years later, one of my bosses got nailed with Chicken Pox for a 2nd time in her life - which it's believed that when that happens, it's usually worse... I think she also just had a baby around that time, which kind of complicated things - for both of them!

So there is hope even with the predicted pandemic flu. They are working on that now too. So, I wouldn't worry too much.
time will tell on how any of these things work out.

What I don't understand is why if we're going to be experiencing a shortage of veggie crops in the near future, because there's few bees left to pollinate them, and there's a population growth spurt problem world-wide, and some folks want to live forever in this life - say extend their lifespan to 1,000 years or so (see gem's topic for that one), I wouldn't put all the promises out there, until it's proven over 20 to 50 years at least, that such things are under better control. Some things are or seem cyclic in origin.

[Kestra]

Old home remedies stopped working in my situation, and ginger is supposed to be helpful for upset stomachs dandelion stems work for that as well.

the problem is, society has become too germaphobic. IE when babies are born they're instantly injected with antibiotics. our bodies need to go thru those childhood diseases in order to build our immune systems. we have germicide soaps etc which is the cause of more virulent forms of germs. the drs. have even admitted that they have caused this problem by handing out anti-biotics like pez dispensers.

[Mriana]

We only use the antibacterial soap on our hands. There are good bacteria all over one's body that help to fight the bad bacteria, so you don't want to kill those too, thus why I avoid shower soaps that are antibacterial.

[Alisa]

dandelion stems work for that as well.
blech! reminds me of reading the book "Dandelion Wine" for English class. Dandelions in abundance...! :D

the problem is, society has become too germaphobic. IE when babies are born they're instantly injected with antibiotics. our bodies need to go thru those childhood diseases in order to build our immune systems.
babies really need their first milk (the colostrum) from their natural mom . That's where most of the antibodies are, before they should be injected with anything synthetic.

...we have germicide soaps etc which is the cause of more virulent forms of germs. the drs. have even admitted that they have caused this problem by handing out anti-biotics like pez dispensers.
LOL!! ;)
so true, so true - it's pathetic.

[Mriana]

babies really need their first milk (the colostrum) from their natural mom . That's where most of the antibodies are, before they should be injected with anything synthetic.

I didn't breastfeed either of my sons and they did alright. Not that I disagree, but sometimes it's just not possible for a mother to breastfeed for many different reasons. My first son, I just couldn't and with my second son, I was recovering from toxemia that also affect him before he was born- thus I had to deliver him early. Yes, he was very jaundice and instead of three days in the hospital, we were there for a week. They weren't sure if they could save both of us to begin with, but they did. They literally asked my husband and me who we wanted them to save if push came to shove. I still delivered him naturally (well, I did have an epidural), but it came very close to an emergency C-section. I had more tubes going into me and all but one (the one to induce labour) stayed in me for 24 hours after I delivered him as well as a heart and other vitals moniter. I didn't get to hold him as soon as I did my first son. They rushed him off before I could even ask to hold him and unlike my first son, where I stayed awake for over 24 hours, I literally passed out after they took him to the lights and whatever else he needed. He had tubes in him too for a while. Luckily, we both survived it, but I could have lost a second child just that easily. :( I'm lucky to be here too for that matter.

So, it's not always feesible for a mother to breastfeed.

[Alisa]

So, it's not always feesible for a mother to breastfeed.
well, if a mother has numerous or serious "health" problems, I always thought that may cause more damage, but I don't know.

This is information I learned in (college level) horse rearing classes. It was a *universal* rule for all mammals (and humans too, because that question came up), based on what our (female) instructor told us, too. I personally don't feel comfortable if I knew a mother was a drug addict while pregnant or had some major other damaging health problems. And it's only that first dose that counts - universally across the board. It's not the other feeding times following. ...and I'm only repeating what I was told (and taught) by an expert, who was also versed in some veterinary skills. ;)

As for those persons who didn't get mom's first dose... because that was NOT the *in* thing to do -- the bottle came out first, instead -- well, I personally know several people who suffer severe allergies, now because of that new-born "colostrum" deficiency. Diet may also alleviate some deficiencies, but allergies are the biggest problems being blamed for not being sent out into this world with a little bit of extra support behind our diet from mom. It's also part of a study that has been in debate for many years, but more weight seems to side on the folks suffering from severe allergies early in life, than those who get mild allergies later in their adult years (which is also blamed on poor dietary habits).

[Elorie Alton]

... but allergies are the biggest problems being blamed for not being sent out into this world with a little bit of extra support behind our diet from mom. It's also part of a study that has been in debate for many years, but more weight seems to side on the folks suffering from severe allergies early in life, than those who get mild allergies later in their adult years (which is also blamed on poor dietary habits).

Mriana is right not everyone can breast feed, but if the mother can, it is better for the baby and better for her if she does so.

As the allergies, some babies are born with an allergy to cows milk, but for the most part I think that allergies come from foods being introduced into a baby's system before their digestive systems can handle them. There is a reason that babies shouldn't have orange juice too early and why they shouldn't be exposed to corn and corn products.

I cannot tell you how angry I was when a "sister-in-law" decided on her own to introduce "cereals" very early in her daughter's life so the baby would sleep through the night. The only thing the cereal did was fill the child’s stomach, and she would digest it slowly so she wouldn't wake up hungry. She was too young and her digestive system too immature to get any nutritional value from the cereal and because her stomach was full she didn't get the formula that would have been nutritionally correct. There are very few people I can out right say I dislike, but she is on that list. Is it any wonder that my brother's oldest daughter has allergy problems?

Elorie

[Alisa]

ack! what strange topics this place morphs into at times. :D
now, for bringing things back into PERSPECTIVE....


on the more *morbid* note...

This morning my hubby brought home a paper copy of the New Jersey (Newark) STAR-LEDGER, as he normally does. Usually I pick out the coupons and Tv Guide.. and ignore the rest. and life goes on.

But the front page headlines read-
"THE PLOT TO BLOW UP JFK"


jeesh!! (the plotting vandals) they're still at it (no surprise there, except *America* doesn't seem to care).

the people behind these MAN-MADE disasters-to-be are obsessed!!!!!!!!!!!
when is AMERICA going to wake up and realize these people won't give up until we're all DEAD????!
After it's TOO LATE -- don't cut it. "well, they haven't hit us yet" - another point that don't work too well on this side of the Atlantic.
Sorry folks, frenzied Native American here on warpath of words! :mad:


and on the internet Under the CRIME FILE in the New York Daily News--
click on link to read article
" They aimed to kill thousands" (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime_file/2007/06/03/2007-06-03_they_aimed_to_kill_thousands-4.html)
BY JOHN MARZULLI, JAMES GORDON MEEK, ALISON GENDAR AND ROBERT F. MOORE
(DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITERS)
posted Sunday, June 3rd 2007, 4:00 AM

the significance of this article is the reserve fuel tanks nearby.
My parents are buried near such a place (and is probably connected to the same pipeline service mentioned in the article); and ever since September 11, 2001, I've never felt comforted in that particular detail.
This article merely reinforces that dread that's always been in the back of my mind.

Oh S***!!!! I just looked at the map on the Daily News site -- it (the pipeline) does interconnect - right across from the cemetary, too! :eek2:
(hey, I only swear big-time bad when important issues come up - *g*!) ;)

During my mom's funeral - the entire time I watched my mom's urn go into the ground, I watched every plane that flew overhead, and kept a wary eye on the storage tanks just across yonder. Fortunately, that day was quiet and had no harrowing incidents. My parents (bodies) were now together in a peaceful spot. At least for the moment. I dreaded the thoughts that were running thru my mind that day, and in those supposedly *quieter* moments, as my entire family lineage could get blown up in a matter of nano-seconds.


Just BECAUSE "this time" the evil deeds didn't succeed, doesn't translate that in the future, these crazy people bent on destroying US won't try, try again -- when America has fallen asleep again into apathy, and feeling *safe* with that annoying mantra of
"oh, they haven't bombed us yet!"

Whether people refuse to believe in the Bible or not, its prophecy always rings true with, just when the people are shouting (sometimes with glee) "Peace, Peace! finally we can relax!" -- that's often when all *hell* breaks loose shortly after.

other articles-
"Police hunt for missing member of JFK 'terror plot cell'" (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article1877426.ece)
posted June 3, 2007

please click on below link for full article
(hoping it stays as is, even in archived form)-
posted on the World Peace Herald web site...
"Plot to blow up JFK airport foiled" (http://wpherald.com/articles/5016/1/Plot-to-blow-up-JFK-airport-foiled/Plotters-aimed-to-kill-thousands.html)

By Audrey Hudson, The Washington Times
June 3, 2007

WASHINGTON -- Three men, including a former member of the Guyanese parliament, were charged yesterday with plotting to destroy the fuel-supply tanks at New York's John F. Kennedy International Airport and the 40-mile fuel pipeline from New Jersey to the airport in Queens.
...

"Anytime you hit Kennedy, it is the most hurtful thing to the United States," Mr. Defreitas was quoted in the complaint. "To hit John F. Kennedy, wow . They love John F. Kennedy like he's the man . If you hit that, this whole country will be in mourning. It's like you can kill the man twice." Authorities said he boasted last month that the explosions "can destroy the economy of America for some time."

Roslynn R. Mauskopf, U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of New York, called it "one of the most chilling plots imaginable."

In a recorded conversation after one of the surveillance missions to JFK airport, she said, "Mr. Defreitas predicted that the attacks would result in the destruction of 'the whole of Kennedy,' that only a few people would survive the attack and that, because of the location of the targeted fuel pipelines, part of Queens would explode."
...

just parts of Queens?? (that's NY for anyone who didn't know)
try a good chunk of northeastern NJ, too, especially if the pipeline connects at all to NJ. And THAT is probably NOT an exaggeration, either! :eek4:

...remember the 1991 hell fires (literal lake of fire) of Kuwait? yep, that's the image.
it's never left my mind ever since CNN Tv-News first broadcasted about it. :(

[Dot]

The govt calls it *a massive disaster* the experts on detonation call it *a massive pipedream* (sic) (it wouldn't have happened)

Mr. Bush says *fighting in Iraq keeps them from coming here* :osam:

AHEM.. :tantrum:

The ringleaders were identified as radicals with ties to Guyana and Trinidad and Tobago. Three suspects, including a former member of the Guyanese parliament,(who left his parliament position last year, has connections in Iran, where his son attended school) have been arrested.
He was arrested Friday as he boarded a flight from Trinidad to Venezuela.

The ringleader said he was motivated to attack Kennedy Airport because while working there years ago for Evergreen International Aviation, he saw missiles being shipped to Israel. He told the informant he believed the missiles would be used to kill Muslims, authorities said.
He "wanted to do something to get those bastards," apparently referring to Jews and the U.S.

I have said they are HERE already, do to our inattention to the southern borders and the massive influx of immigrants :group: that no-one keeps track of..

and GRANTING sanctuary status to former spies from other nations..
AND allowing people with no security clearence :det: to observe missles from ANYWHERE going to where-ever..HELLO!!!!
Where are these threats coming from? NOT IRAQ..

Yes people have to WAKE UP.. because our way of life is ERODING from WITHIN.... :Poof:

[Alisa]

The govt calls it *a massive disaster* the experts on detonation call it *a massive pipedream* (sic) (it wouldn't have happened)

Mr. Bush says *fighting in Iraq keeps them from coming here* :osam:

AHEM.. :tantrum:
...

Yes people have to WAKE UP.. because our way of life is ERODING from WITHIN.... :Poof:

yeah... the experts keep saying our government has thwarted another one... (until the next time).
Which if "next time" ever happens, it'll be too late... :(



just a clarification on my parent's and ancestry graves in that path of potential disaster - it's not worrying about them that concerns me - they're already dead and gone (they wouldn't even know what hit them if anything did blow them out of the ground into ascension of a different kind)..
but the people still alive visiting them are still here... hellllllllooooooooooooo??
those storage fuel tanks across the highway have been there for years, and concerns have *always* existed about those tanks and pipeline system lonnnnnnng before
the incidents of September 11, 2001 and Oklahoma bombings ever happened.
:arge:

It's no less or worse of a concern than the 2-mile zone of smelly industries sitting in the proverbial "armpit of NJ" (and those who want to vandalize or destroy it know exactly where it is). One area would domino effect into the other, and people who don't live there have no idea what it's like to live day in and day out in these sections. It's not scare tactics, but reality ... and an annoying one at that (grrrrrrrrrrrr!).

The winds of (the planet) Saturn look peaceful in contrast. ;)


this planet (earth) will never have peace when too many people just hate each others guts (or idealogies, and refuse to co-exist peacefully together). If peace comes, it better not be because one group wiped out the entire populations of the other -- even tho that seems to be the more likely scenario with each passing news update that comes across the news floors.
*sigh*
:rolleyes:

[Kestra]

The ringleaders were identified as radicals with ties to Guyana and Trinidad and Tobago. Three suspects, including a former member of the Guyanese parliament,(who left his parliament position last year, has connections in Iran, where his son attended school) have been arrested. He was arrested Friday as he boarded a flight from Trinidad to Venezuela. :hmm: Iran connections, sound familiar? i just find this all too convenient with giggles hell-bent to bomb Iran. and they were heading to Venezuela, guess we need to bomb that country too?

[Dot]

Hey Alisa..
yeah the NJ stinkum-factories..there's plenty in the three borous as well..
cesspits one and all..


Kes..I don't doubt tha a copy-cat wannabe terrorist would travel to Iran or claim to have ties there.
I also don't doubt that the govt would use it as an excuse to invade either country..

what pisses me off is that our southern border and obviously our northern one (TB-man) remain wide open..

the DEMS expect everyone to swallow the line (hook and sinker) that the INS will be able to process 12-23 million applications when they are behind by 2 years on CURRENT applications..

[Alisa]

Hey Alisa..
yeah the NJ stinkum-factories..there's plenty in the three borous as well..
cesspits one and all..

peeeee-uuuuuuuu. That's why there's been a lot of discussion on this side of the state about if those sites ever get hit - the fumes wafing westward (if at all) would be worse than the ones at the WTC were in 2001.


what pisses me off is that our southern border and obviously our northern one (TB-man) remain wide open..

the DEMS expect everyone to swallow the line (hook and sinker) that the INS will be able to process 12-23 million applications when they are behind by 2 years on CURRENT applications..

I heard on the radio last week that the border patrol folks want an increase in their paychecks as well as an increase in HELP and other processing factors!! - because they can't handle the influx - such as it is.

geeeeee, now, who wudda thought of that?
and how many more years will pass by, before that situation gets under control...? and if so, for or in who's *favor*...? :eek:

[Dot]

=Alisa;
I heard on the radio last week that the border patrol folks want an increase in their paychecks as well as an increase in HELP and other processing factors!! - because they can't handle the influx - such as it is.

they can't get people to fill those positions (now who woulda thought filling a federal job with all those bennies would be so hard?)
The men and women who work for them know that THEY could be arrested if they DO their job..who'd want a job like that?
So how well do you think they are doing it now, having to worry about if an ILLEGAL is going to sue them for being a meanie??

[Kestra]

what pisses me off is that our southern border and obviously our northern one (TB-man) remain wide open..

the DEMS expect everyone to swallow the line (hook and sinker) that the INS will be able to process 12-23 million applications when they are behind by 2 years on CURRENT applications.. yeah and once the reps are no longer in power the $$$60 trillion house of cards is gonna come down hard. i wonder if the illegals here will rush back to their own countries then.

[Dot]

yeah and once the reps are no longer in power the $$$60 trillion house of cards is gonna come down hard. i wonder if the illegals here will rush back to their own countries then.

oh hell no..they will offer their services at even more of a *cut rate* and THEY will be the ones working.

[Dot]

But the front page headlines read-
"THE PLOT TO BLOW UP JFK"
jeesh!! (the plotting vandals) they're still at it (no surprise there, except *America* doesn't seem to care).


and then there's this:
Another setback, another phony terrorist plot
By DOUG THOMPSON

Like so many of the dubious claims of foiled terrorist plots, last week's announcement that the Bush Administration's Keystone Kops Department of Homeland Security had uncovered and blocked a plan to blow up New York's JFK Airport reeked to high heaven.

According to the same federal guardians of national security who place six-year-old kids and infirm grandmothers on the airlines' "no fly" lists while waving a TB-infected traveler through customs with no questions during an international alert, a group of evil men with all the intellect of a five-year old planned to blow up the airport by setting fire to a fuel depot several miles away.

The plan, if you can call this comedy of errors one, was that the fire would spread to the airport and destroy it.

Of course, this "plan" depended on the ability of slow-burning kerosene to explode - something it doesn't do - and a number of other impossible actions that violate the laws of gravity and physics.

Announcement of the "plot" came as the Bush administration came off a particular bad month in the failed Iraq war and just as Democratic candidates for President headed into another debate.

It might have worked had not everyone with an ounce of common sense - from local beat cops to real terrorism experts - been willing to explain how the plan wouldn't work as laid out by the FBI and other lemmings ready to run off cliffs for the Bush Administration.

Revelations of the plot that wasn't also came as a military judge was set to rule that Bush's use of cobbled-together military tribunals to detain terrorism suspects without the usual protections of the Constitution fail not only the smell test but the rule of law, and then vacated charges against 2 Gitmo detainees

Every time Bush suffers a setback on his loophole-filled "war on terrorism," his minions come up with claims of a foiled plot. He suffers a lot of setbacks so we get a lot of breathless claims.

Like the recent announcement of a foiled plot by other terrorists who, the Administration would like us to believe, planned to dress up as pizza delivery men to sneak into Fort Dix, kill as many American soldiers as they could, and then escape in their pizza truck.

According to the laughable premise of this plot, this handful of gun-wielding terrorists were not on a suicide mission but thought they could roar into a military base filled with soldiers trained to fight, shoot it out with them, and then escape unharmed.
The laughs you hear come from security professionals who wonder just when Bush and the Department of Homeland Security hired the writers from Saturday Night Live to devise phony terrorist scenarios.

These latest claims of foiled plots show the frantic desperation that drives the Bush White House and its complete, utter loss of touch with reality.
In Bush's fantasy world, terrorists are akin to the villains in a vaudeville skit, threatening to tie young Nell to the railroad track unless they get the deed to the ranch until a cardboard cowboy President rides in to save the day and Osama slinks back into his cave to twirl his mustache and utter "curses, foiled again."

But before we buy into this vaudeville act, we should remember that the word "foiled" is a derivative of "foil," which the dictionary defines as "to obscure or confuse."
A perfect definition of the goal of the administration of George W. Bush.

[Alisa]

interesting article, except I remember when I was a preteen going thru that area (over 30 years ago), and hearing about a similar storage tank that was on fire. It was an isolated incident. These are grouped near each other and connected by pipeline.

One report claims that it would be a slow burn, and take longer to make the others catch fire. What's underground doesn't really burn (except for those mysterious mine incidents in recent years -in the midwest USA- that have had the ground burning without knowing how to stop the earth from venting the fires). hmmmmm... yeah, no one's at risk, until the area explodes like a gas station.

And only if someone was on the watchful eye ball - monitoring that system and valves, then maybe the lines could be shut down in time to avert worse disaster.
So, how much *faith* goes into trusting on-the-job newbies and breaks, and other distractions..?


My sister isn't worried about it (of course not! she's at least 2,000 miles away!).
Not sure what my other sister (in NJ) thinks. Her hubby is an experienced fireman.

Anyhow... found the following conversation heard from the other night. It's now in print.


posted on CNN's TRANSCRIPTS web site...
GLENN BECK's Tv news program (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0706/04/gb.01.html)

Aired (Monday) June 4, 2007 - 19:00:00 ET
Guest Hosted by MICHAEL SMERCONISH


(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROSLYNN MAUSKOPF, U.S. ATTORNEY: The devastation that would be caused had this plot succeeded is just unthinkable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SMERCONISH: It may be unthinkable, and it certainly is frightening, but while every new foiled plot to kill innocent Americans grabs our attention and takes over the headlines, the real story is that the man responsible for 9/11, the one attack that did succeed, is still at large. Most people understand that Osama bin Laden - remember him - is still on the run and presumed to be hiding in Pakistan, but what many folks don't understand is exactly who's supposed to be looking for him. The United States has entrusted Pakistan's leader, General Pervez Musharraf, with organizing the hunt for bin Laden inside Pakistan, and we`re apparently paying them $80 million a month to do it, over $5.6 billion so far. Essentially, we've outsourced the job, the hunt for bin Laden.

And like most things that we don't do ourselves, it's not being done right. For $80 million a month, we don`t even get a set of performance benchmarks or goals. Pakistan gets the money whether they look for bin Laden or not. And, unfortunately, they're probably not looking, at least not in the right areas, because General Musharraf struck an accord with tribal warlords last fall whereby he agreed to remove the Pakistani army from the northwest part of his country, the same area where bin Laden is believed to have crossed from Afghanistan, and to cede all control to those warlords.

So who's left to look for him? And even more importantly, why is no one, not our president, nor our presidential candidates, even talking about this issue?

Last night's Democratic debate was the first time in four presidential debates that Pakistan and Musharraf were even referenced. That's how far we've taken our eyes off the ball. Bin Laden may be out of sight, but we owe it to the 3,000 victims of September 11 to never let him be out of mind.

Christine Fair is a senior research associate at the U.S. Institute of Peace and a leading expert on Pakistan. You have all the credentials; I just have the opinion. My opinion is: We've outsourced the hunt for bin Laden.
...

the rest of the conversation (see CNN's link) was rather an interesting twisting of an already deep quagmire.

So where is the $80 million per month going..??
(keeping the bin Laden's mountain group at bay?? nahh.
paying the bin Laden's group off... keeping them in business... with US money...
...and don't forget the potential of keeping General Musharraf alive by him paying off bin Laden's group.. but if that's true, for how long will it last?
with attempts already made on Musharraf's life -- that's probably the more suspected likely scenario.)

That's what sounded to be implied / written between the lines above. :rolleyes:
The below comment was CHRISTINE FAIR's answer to the question.

(spoken by CHRISTINE FAIR, U.S. INSTITUTE OF PEACE: )

... I mean, I first want to sort of take a step back. Since 9/11, we've given Pakistan about $10 billion in overt money and maybe as much as covert funds, as well. But what we're getting for that money is not, as you've described, an explicit agenda to go out and capture specific individuals.

What we're getting for that money is the right to offload our war materiel at the base in Karachi, the naval base. We're also allowed to transit that war materiel through ground and through air routes into Afghanistan. This is critical. No one really thinks about the necessities of being able to offload that materiel at Karachi and get it to Afghanistan. Without that support, the war is virtually impossible.

(and who's *word* should be trusted for every dollar accounted for?)
$80 million is a lot o'bucks to track...

[Elorie Alton]

(and who's *word* should be trusted for every dollar accounted for?)
$80 million is a lot o'bucks to track...

I don't know about that, I track anywhere from 50 to 100 million dollers every day, and I can account for every cent. It isn't hard with the right tools.

Elorie

[Kestra]

The United States has entrusted Pakistan's leader, General Pervez Musharraf, with organizing the hunt for bin Laden inside Pakistan, and we`re apparently paying them $80 million a month to do it, over $5.6 billion so far. Essentially, we've outsourced the job, the hunt for bin Laden. small wonder US has a $60 trillion deficit.

[Dot]

Thot this was appropo for the topic:
President Bush issued a directive in 2004 requiring a new ID card,
(Supposedly to help deter terrorists, criminals and computer hackers).
The Bush administration's goal is to replace the multiple ID cards used in the government with a single "smart" card that will verify a person's identity

The cards, which resemble credit cards, are embedded with a computer chip that permits an exchange of data with another system.

In addition to building access, smart cards can be used to supplement passwords for logging on to computers, with users inserting the card into readers on their desktops.
...
Kathy Dillaman, who oversees investigative services at the Office of Personnel Management, said the information being collected is to determine whether a person meets certain character and conduct standards necessary for carrying out a government job
...
Employees also are concerned about the potential for identity theft if their personal information is stolen or lost from a database.



NoW I will ask two things.."isn't it easier to steal and identity or gain access when only one form of ID is neccessary, and it contains ALL the information you need??

Can anyone say "mark of the beast?" :demon:
"He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark"
I'm telling you , they are looking in the wrong place for the beast :creature:
""And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men."
fires from the heavens..gee sounds like http://www.dibaba.com/wp-content/uploadssite/abomb.gif
"He was given power to make war ....and to conquer.... And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
The patriot act...

[Mriana]

Well, that's not a mushroom I want to see again, even though I wasn't born yet to see the first one, I did see it in Hiroshima History movies in grade school. :cry2:

[Alisa]

WOW! that's a HUGE *fireball* photo... gets the point across. gotta be blind NOT to notice *that*!! :p


So where is the $80 million per month going..??
...
(and who's *word* should be trusted for every dollar accounted for?)
$80 million is a lot o'bucks to track...

I don't know about that, I track anywhere from 50 to 100 million dollers every day, and I can account for every cent. It isn't hard with the right tools.

I was referring more to a few hundred dollars here or there (for each month sent) that might get rounded out to the nearest full figure amount. If someone is "cooking" the books somehow (maintaining a public USA sees book vs. a private USA is denied access to book/receipts), they'd find a way to cover their tracks. All the USA people see are reports based on another country's "word".

Regardless of who signed the first USA check over to the other country, it's similar to the world relief organizations -- once it's out of USA jurisdiction and inside the other country's financial domain, who knows where it goes to, especially if *tracks* are being covered up on those hilly and dangerous terrains that are in suspect for "safe" USA or equipment travel..? There's no firm accountability there, when things can go wishy-washy.

Look at what happened to the funds helping Sri-Lanka during the Dec. 26 Tsunami a few years ago... It only took about one or two months before the complaints began pouring in that the money and aid relief sent was being stolen by "guerrillas" in the region for their own uses, and never reached the poor, injured, or starving people who really needed it. :(

[Elorie Alton]

I was referring more to a few hundred dollars here or there (for each month sent) that might get rounded out to the nearest full figure amount. If someone is "cooking" the books somehow (maintaining a public USA sees book vs. a private USA is denied access to book/receipts), they'd find a way to cover their tracks. All the USA people see are reports based on another country's "word"

That’s a general fallacy that no one will notice a few hundred dollars here and there. I can tell you that it’s simply not true. The art of bookkeeping (and notice that I didn’t say accounting or finance – those are other things) is very good at catching those kinds of discrepancies simply with an audit. Most irregularities are caught very quickly and IMHO, people that risk a steady job by trying to steal a few hundred dollars are pretty stupid to begin with.

It’s the people in management that have the kind of access and power to “cook the books” long enough to pull out major funds. (Enron is a good example – the “irregularities” involved the highest level of management.)

Regardless of who signed the first USA check over to the other country, it's similar to the world relief organizations -- once it's out of USA jurisdiction and inside the other country's financial domain, who knows where it goes to, especially if *tracks* are being covered up on those hilly and dangerous terrains that are in suspect for "safe" USA or equipment travel..? There's no firm accountability there, when things can go wishy-washy.

Glad you brought that up, in general it’s a good idea to audit even “relief organizations” on a regular basis, if they are not audited it is not the organization’s fault but those that seem to enjoy giving large sums of money to clearly unsavory characters. Here you can insert our dear president, who seems to think that it’s not unusual to pay “bribes”.

Look at what happened to the funds helping Sri-Lanka during the Dec. 26 Tsunami a few years ago... It only took about one or two months before the complaints began pouring in that the money and aid relief sent was being stolen by "guerrillas" in the region for their own uses, and never reached the poor, injured, or starving people who really needed it.

Again the real fault is with the giver. How many hundreds and thousands of dollars are given each year to more than suspect televangelists. How much money did people like Jim Baker rake in and no one thought a thing about it.

There are thieves in every section of society, in every country, and almost in every instance each are stupid enough to think that they are “smart” enough to get away with it forever. They are not.

Elorie

On a side note, Finance deals with pure theory, Accounting deals with the distribution of information, bookkeepers are the mechanics that make sure everything is correctly identified and in place.

[Dot]

you are right Elorie..

accounting and finance are way different..

figures don't lie but liars can figure.. various US depts keept their own set of *books* and some keep none at all.

Billions have been funneled thru various agencies with the money going out (to various black ops) as fast as it comes in..the Agriculture Dept is one of them .. you think the $$ are going to growing and farmers..yeah, maye the opium farmers in Afghanistan.

millions have been funneled to liars, crooks and theives running faith based organizations that are not REQUIREd to account for the money..while they steall it out of the budgets for the poor and families..

[Kestra]

i know this is about Iraq, but i think it will fit here since we're discussing $$.

A Failure to Protect Our Troops (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/14/opinion/14thu1.html?th&emc=th)
For more than two years, the Pentagon largely ignored :LALA: urgent requests from field commanders for better armor-protected vehicles that could have saved untold lives and limbs.

The Bush administration and military leaders in Washington are always claiming that they will do anything to support American troops fighting in Iraq. :liar3:

That makes it all the more infuriating to learn that, for more than two years, two frikken years! the Pentagon largely ignored urgent requests from field commanders for better armor-protected vehicles that could have saved untold lives and limbs. oh yeah, giggles supports the GI's.

Improvised explosive devices, or I.E.D.’s, can blast through the flat underbelly of the military’s standard Humvees, maiming and killing the soldiers within. These devices, a low-tech response to America’s overwhelming military power, are now causing 70 percent to 80 percent of the American combat deaths in Iraq. 70 to 80%.

More than two years ago, according to newly disclosed documents, Marine commanders in Al Anbar Province, a center of the Sunni insurgency, submitted an urgent request for more than 1,100 Mine Resistant Ambush Protected Vehicles, or MRAPs, that have V-shaped bottoms able to deflect blasts from below. For reasons yet to be satisfactorily explained, military officials initially sat on the request and then ordered relatively few. :fwag:

Some, second-guessing the judgment of the battlefield commanders, apparently felt that Humvees with upgraded armor could do the job. Others may have been reluctant to invest billions of dollars in vehicles that might have little use after Iraq. yeah screw keeping our GI's safe. Turf battles were probably also a factor, as a large-scale purchase might threaten future weapons programs. :shock: oh no! we can't have that! But Iraq is the war that Americans are fighting and dying in today.

Only now are Pentagon leaders, prodded by Senator Joseph R. Biden Jr. and other critics on Capitol Hill, rushing to ramp up production. Congress has accelerated funding to buy more than 7,000 of the vehicles by early next year, yes, vehicles they should have had from day one and the military services are seeking some 21,000 in all, at a cost that could exceed $20 billion. Defense Secretary Robert Gates has declared his determination to "produce as many of these vehicles and get them into the field as fast as possible," though the precise number needed has yet to be established.

Unfortunately, the MRAPs will remain vulnerable to the deadliest I.E.D.’s, known as "explosively formed penetrators," which destroy vehicles from the side. The military is looking for ways to add armor to the MRAPs and is testing another new vehicle to counter that threat.

If the small companies that make these vehicles are not able to produce the quantities needed quickly, President Bush and Secretary Gates ought to make this a crash program and enlist major manufacturers. oh butt giggles only likes the big companies like Haliburton.

There can be no excuse for failing to provide the best possible protection for American troops in this disastrous war.

[Alisa]

I was referring more to a few hundred dollars here or there (for each month sent) that might get rounded out to the nearest full figure amount. If someone is "cooking" the books somehow (maintaining a public USA sees book vs. a private USA is denied access to book/receipts), they'd find a way to cover their tracks. All the USA people see are reports based on another country's "word".

Regardless of who signed the first USA check over to the other country, it's similar to the world relief organizations -- once it's out of USA jurisdiction and inside the other country's financial domain, who knows where it goes to, especially if *tracks* are being covered up on those hilly and dangerous terrains that are in suspect for "safe" USA or equipment travel..? There's no firm accountability there, when things can go wishy-washy.
:(

That’s a general fallacy that no one will notice a few hundred dollars here and there. I can tell you that it’s simply not true. The art of bookkeeping (and notice that I didn’t say accounting or finance – those are other things) is very good at catching those kinds of discrepancies simply with an audit. Most irregularities are caught very quickly and IMHO, people that risk a steady job by trying to steal a few hundred dollars are pretty stupid to begin with.

It’s the people in management that have the kind of access and power to “cook the books” long enough to pull out major funds. (Enron is a good example – the “irregularities” involved the highest level of management.)

I'm not talking about what's being audited on the American (USA) side (of anything). I'm saying once the check is in the hands of the other country and its leaders or controllers, they are not subject to being audited (lest the USA gets audited by the same terms). That's the who and what I'm referring to.

So, it's easier for them to say they did one thing and force us to *trust* their word or the paper trails our USA officials *are* permitted to look at. Who knows where the actual money went, when it can say one thing but really went elsewhere. A few hundred or even a thousand per month won't be that much noticed from $80 million...

I'm not saying the bookkeeping can't be done correctly. I'm saying (based on what several other folks have brought up in the radio / TV news) that in countries where rebels are allowed to roam free, there's no accountability (responsibility) on the part of the deceiving rebels, and the governments there (insert you're own set of suspects ______) who won't stop them. :innocent:

This is not an American anything issue, but the "other" country issue.

Why is it America (and England) is constantly called on the carpet to be truthful (and that's debatable), but certain "other" countries get away with our $$ and supplies, and give flippant or dictatorial answers at best, or the journalists get kidnapped or killed when its suspected they're getting too close to a real answer, if they are ever questioned at all..?

That's what many (conservative) newspeople have been asking for years. if rebels are running loose, and are obviously not being stopped,
"oh well" .. and life goes on policy. (la la lalla...)
:tramp:

[Dot]

that is so funny..I have worked for companies that cooked their books and been victims of them.. Enron was a good example of cooked books, major finance companies and investment companies have been fined for cooking..
that's a Big reason that a lot of CO's have moved off shore..they don't have to SHOW their books..

you want to see a major cook-book..just try to find the real $$'s in Cingular/SouthwestBell,SouthernBell/ATT mergers/buyouts/breakups/remergers

[Alisa]

Global warming is a long-term situation that is resolvable. The below WORLD issue one is not, because the whole planet is going CRAZY!!!!!!!!!

Also, another batch of school kids were caught plotting a bigger Columbine experience.. they left their papers behind in a food resturant. Plans to buy Oozees and those sorts of things to kill off the cops, once the kids and teachers got blown away.

for details, click on link for article (if it's still there)..
headline/article posted on MSNBC's web site-
(from the AP-Associated Press)
"2 teens charged with N.Y. school bomb plot"
‘This will go down in history,’ 15-year-old boy wrote of alleged conspiracy (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19750843/)

..same above situation - details posted on CNN.com
"Teens charged in alleged plot to kill students" (http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/07/13/shooting.plot/index.html)



On the larger WORLD issue--
I've been saying it before, America is falling asleep, and no one cares, not as long as their life isn't currently or immediately affected.

Well, one corner of NJ does care, but can't do anything about it.. I heard a discussion about the news last night (and for the recent several days- to add nauseum), and guess what... well, apparently we're one of the # 1 targets on the hit list (so claim the neighbors). Yeppers, the places where my dad worked would be blown off the map first - putting a nice hole in this state.

Don't think it's possible? Don't underestimate the adversary (anyone anywhere plotting to kill US Americans). Little hints on the news and grapevine.. There's more movement going on to do what? move everything to underground bunkers so that the politicians can save themselves when/if an attack comes??!!! So, should anything drastic happen in NJ and reaches the news on a *grand* scale, it might be too late for the rest of the USA, as well. :eek:
:(

posted on CNN.com transcripts web site...
"Can We Fend Off Another Terror Attack?
Will Government Tighten Process for Buying Nuclear Materials?" (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0707/12/gb.01.html)

hosted by Glenn Beck
Aired July 12, 2007 - 19:00:00 ET

BECK: They're here. U.S. counterterrorism analysts say al Qaeda has restored its operating capabilities to a level unseen since September 11, 2001. Hello, America. Here's the point tonight.

Look out, here it comes. And I'm not talking about an attack on our soil, but about a wave of fury against us by our leaders, who are clearly failing us.
...
If the crap is going to hit the fan -- and all signs are pointing to that happening, you know, sometime or another -- it is -- it`s not going to be our government that saves us. I`m convinced of it. It is going to be we, the people; you, me, or somebody like us who`s vigilant. Somebody who sees something and says something.

So tonight, here`s what you need to know. Regarding terrorism, the other shoe is going to drop. Sometime soon maybe, if Chertoff is right. The only question is, can we catch it before it lands with a tragic thud?
...

The rest of this is in the transcript. I'm sure there's more coming tonight and over the weekend. If not then, then in later weeks. :(

Vigilance is the key word that keeps popping back up into the news...
Those who want US (the USA) dead, sure are vigilant; what happened to the majority of folks in the USA??

[Dot]

I'm so tired of these moddle-coddled kids whining about how their life is so bad..
they need a good old fashioned whippin with the business end of a belt.
their parents obviously spared the rod..
now they'll get years of therapy..to *help them* understand their emotions..

as far as the adversary getting us..well why the hell not..?
the govt and corporate overlords have been selling off this country to the highest bidder for the lowest wages..and the they have been pouring across the border by the millions...

we had the opportunity to get the bastards that attacked us on 9/11 and squandered it by attacking (and subsequently getting mired down) in Iraq.
Instead the bad guys are bigger, btter, and more financed then they have ever been.

you're right alissa..the US needs to *snap out of it* and open their damn eyes..

but the *me me me* ideology is prevelant in the youth and the adults..:mad:

[Kestra]

Global warming is a long-term situation that is resolvable. The below WORLD issue one is not, because the whole planet is going CRAZY!!!!!!!!! that it is Alisa, that it is. ppl have lost their way. in my book global warming is our #1 worst threat, and we're all in this together, including terrorists. on the bright side, no planet, no terrorists. now there's a slogan for the fear mongers: "planet earth is the biggest contributer towards global terrorism. fight terrorism, kill the planet, it's the patriotic thing to do".

Vigilance is the key word that keeps popping back up into the news... Those who want US (the USA) dead, sure are vigilant; what happened to the majority of folks in the USA?? vigilant yes, afraid no. we were vigilant until giggles stole the election and let 9\11 happen, and then like Dot says, he squandered US support and allies by obsessing over Iraq.

as far as Chertoff's irritable bowel syndrome is concerned.

Chertoff's Gastronomy

Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff has a "gut feeling (http://capweb.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=MEUa11YrTiLQZQjPatfkp74dlgf31PR0)" that the United States is at an "increased risk" of a terrorist attack this summer. yeah, let's run this country on "gut feelings", after all, our pres has been running things on his "gut feelings" too and look how well that's worked for US so far. But as White House officials admit, there is "no credible, specific intelligence (http://capweb.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=khfbWv4K50DQZQjPatfkp74dlgf31PR0) to suggest that there is an imminent threat to the homeland." we had no credible specific intel about Iraq being an "imminent threat", Saddam and yellow cake either Chertoff should not be announcing terrorist threats based on his gastrointestinal murmurs. :fart: yes, he should take some Beano instead. State and local officials need solid intelligence in order to properly prepare. wouldn't that have been nice if they'd have been as 'vigilant' b4 Iraq invasion\occupation. Yet there is no doubt that the global threat of terrorism (http://capweb.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=yCvR9efHI2zQZQjPatfkp74dlgf31PR0) :osam: has increased since the U.S. invasion of Iraq in 2003. good work giggles... "Mission Accomplised". A new threat assessment from U.S. counterterrorism analysts concludes that al Qaeda is "considerably operationally stronger than a year ago (http://capweb.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=MGuXuO2UvyfQZQjPatfkp74dlgf31PR0)" and has "regrouped to an extent not seen since 2001." "watch me sink this ball.":golf:

A 'GUT FEELING': Chertoff's comments were swiftly attacked by both the right and the left. damn good thing too. "Gut feeling' doesn't help any of us," said Kerry Sleeper, homeland security adviser to Vermont Gov. Jim Douglas (R). that it doesn't, why doesn't anyone step up and tell giggles that "A gut feeling is not the way to convey information (http://capweb.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=FuZIwQIFkAXQZQjPatfkp74dlgf31PR0) to hundreds of thousands of first responders across this country the sky is falling! the sky is falling! :fart: oh never mind, it was just gas. that are responsible for identifying, interrupting or responding to a terrorist attack." House Homeland Security Chairman Bennie G. Thompson (D-MS) wrote to Chertoff on Wednesday and asked him to clarify his comments. gas. "Words have power, Mr. Secretary (http://capweb.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=t11hEoXnshjQZQjPatfkp74dlgf31PR0). You must choose them wisely -- especially when they relate to the lives and security of the American public. ... What cities should be asking their law enforcement to work double shifts because of your 'gut feeling?'" :fart: Not surprisingly, Chertoff's comments were not matched by an increase in the domestic security threat level (http://capweb.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=sfQvDLzXOljQZQjPatfkp74dlgf31PR0). as well they shouldn't. Even White House Press Secretary Tony Snow admitted that Chertoff's "gut feeling" was nothing more than a reflection :shock2: of the Homeland Security Secretary's "belief that this is a time for vigilance (http://capweb.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=YN2Bn8za%2BZjQZQjPatfkp74dlgf31PR0).":eyeroll: Instead of simply generating anxiety, :shock: administration officials need to offer constructive steps that first responders or ordinary citizens can take.

I'm so tired of these moddle-coddled kids whining about how their life is so bad.. oh don't i know it, "i don't have a gameboy..." "i don't have a cell phone."

as far as the adversary getting us..well why the hell not..?we're intruding on their soil.the govt and corporate overlords have been selling off this country to the highest bidder for the lowest wages..and the they have been pouring across the border by the millions... here here.

we had the opportunity to get the bastards that attacked us on 9/11 and squandered it by attacking (and subsequently getting mired down) in Iraq. exactly, and we also had the opportunity to prevent 9\11 as well as get Osama before 9\11 and this current Admin let him go because all it could focus on was invading Iraq.

Instead the bad guys are bigger, btter, and more financed then they have ever been.
yes, and giggles is the al Qaeda recruitment poster child.
you're right alissa..the US needs to *snap out of it* and open their damn eyes..

but the *me me me* ideology is prevelant in the youth and the adults..:mad: amen sisters.

[Alisa]

Part 1 of 2--
turning this into a two parter, because it's worth reading the full article in question..

I was reading about how some people don't like making eye contact in public, and others just love to intimidate you (my neighbor would be very intimidating, just because he IS) :D ...well, I had been thinking of that while grocery shopping.. and made (very brief, but definite) eye contact and probably with someone who didn't want to be noticed...

okay, two very peculiar (suspicious) situations happened this week. One was an unauthorized car parked outside of a place it had no business - and actually, that was the 2nd suspicious vehicle, because a different one showed up earlier at the same address (I found out because someone asked if I knew who's *green* car it was.. No.., sorry, unless it was a green corvette - some girl parked into my car and thought it was funny.. ummm, no dear, it wasn't funny! There are other ways of pleasantly meeting people without literally *bumping* into them and making it a co$tly encounter).

2nd, while food shopping I ended up going down the aisles a different way, because my usual way kept getting blocked. So, on my way around the produce/deli block was a very beautiful young lady with very long hair (I couldn't tell what nationality she was, but she was *extremely* beautiful). I thought I have seen her before - years before, but don't remember the exact year, nor do I know *who* they are (name or anything else, otherwise). She was with her brother or husband. He looked middle-eastern-ish or possibly of some Hispanic origin (I don't know the difference - we've got lots of varieties of folks in our area).

This wouldn't have been weird had either of them had been shopping with a cart or carry-thing, and definitely not weirder if she had not directly followed me up and down the aisles (and I've seen them before in the store, so it's not like they were lost). I skipped a few aisles, she was tenaciously behind me. One time I had to stop short because my path forward was suddenly blocked. The young lady stopped about 4 feet behind me (it was tempting to ask her what she was looking for). I expected her to disappear down the next aisle, like most people do. No. Instead, she followed me around the next block again, so I quick changed direction. (Sorry darling, if she's reading this).

They met up with each other once (after I switched direction!), and both turned around and looked at me, and then split up again. Okay. I just thought that was a bit weird, with everyone else around us, why me??...

Her brother or whoever it was she was with went up and down nearly every aisle, but didn't touch anything, nor did he stop to really look at any products. Even then, I had a strange feeling he wasn't really shopping, but possibly scanning - but for what? Unless she lost an earring in one of the aisles, I could understand them speeding down each aisle - scanning.. but the coincidence in what happened on this same day in the news was a bit too much for my brain to absorb.

I hadn't heard the radio news yet about the *cheese* shopping for planting bombs(!!). :eek4:

yet, just from observing the behavior of these two people, a horrid thought crossed my brain was he looking for security holes in the store(??), because that's the direction he took - mostly everywhere where the cameras weren't. I finally saw him head straight down the dairy and frozen food aisle.. still, he didn't pick up anything at all. Neither did she.

Now, read the following...

posted on CNN.com's transcripts web site...
"TSA Warns of Terrorist Dry Runs" (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0707/25/gb.01.html)

hosted by GLENN BECK
Aired July 25, 2007 - 19:00:00 ET

BECK: TSA has a new reason for you to be terrified to fly this summer. In an alert issued last week, they warned airport security all across the country to look out for terrorists on dry runs, practicing to carry, quote, "unusual and improvised items" onto airplanes, like wires, switches, pipes, tubes, cell phone components and dense claylike substances, including block cheese.

First time I heard that, I thought, "Oh, great, we`re trying to blow up planes now with Velveeta?"

okay, all skeptics -- go ahead laugh.. LOL, too.
IF/when something does happen, no one will be laughing but the ones who did the deed in the first place.

I wouldn't have even thought of that, or anything Glenn Beck mentioned in his report, until after I saw the strange behavior from these two people in the store. I used to work for a store, so we're trained in looking for kids casing the joint for stealing things... That's pretty much what these two people looked like they were doing... a dry run? but if yes, for what?? I never did see them pick up any groceries... and the store wasn't overcrowded like it usually is, too, which means it would be easier for either of them to go thru - apparently doing nothing - unnoticed.

[Alisa]

Part 2 of 2--

actually I wasn't thinking planes, after I saw that whole above situation in the store occur, but public places -like stores...!!! and I didn't hang around long enough to see the end results of whatever (else) they were doing, seeking, or up to.

quoting more of the previous above segment from Glenn Beck's program

posted on CNN.com's transcripts web site...
"TSA Warns of Terrorist Dry Runs" (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0707/25/gb.01.html)

hosted by GLENN BECK
Aired July 25, 2007 - 19:00:00 ET

BECK: TSA has a new reason for you to be terrified to fly this summer. In an alert issued last week, they warned airport security all across the country to look out for terrorists on dry runs, practicing to carry, quote, "unusual and improvised items" onto airplanes, like wires, switches, pipes, tubes, cell phone components and dense claylike substances, including block cheese.

First time I heard that, I thought, "Oh, great, we`re trying to blow up planes now with Velveeta?"

But on the bright side, when questioned about the likelihood of a cheese bomb, the TSA spokesperson said, "Don`t panic. We look for these kinds of things all of the time."

Bu## cra*. There`s more to this story.

Terror analyst Steve Emerson is joining me now.

Steve, I read this report. It is clearly dry runs to see what they can get on planes. There`s, I think, six different examples, but the thing I noticed in the report is they described each person that was carrying these switches, wires, cheese, taking out gels, et cetera, et cetera. They describe them as U.S. people. What?

STEVE EMERSON, TERRORISM EXPERT: They could have described them as human beings to go a step further.

BECK: Yes.

EMERSON: Look, they did a good job in terms of detecting them, reporting on them and issuing a warning.

The bad thing is I think there`s a political correctness here. What we need to know is whether these individuals who brought these items on to the plane or tried to bring them on were members or nationalities reflected in terrorist-supporting regimes. We need to know their ethnicity, and that`s a dirty word because that suggests profiling.

BECK: They did say that none of them have been traced back to terrorist organizations; however, they did not describe them at all. They did say one of them was possibly from a foreign country, but there`s a difference -- you know, there`s a difference between Ireland and perhaps Yemen.

Should we know these things?

EMERSON: We absolutely should know these things. And besides, if they`re looking for a prior terrorist connection, they`re not going find one. Muhammad Atta didn`t have a prior terrorist connection. They`re going to find new people that basically are clean. So that type of description doesn`t help us much.

BECK: So -- go ahead. No, go ahead.

EMERSON: I`m just afraid in general, Glenn, that the political correctness in making these reports, in assessing the threats and not -- and not even -- Gordon Brown, the British prime minister, saying we`re not going to use the term Islamic extremism with making entrees to the Muslim Brotherhood. We are defeating ourselves.

BECK: I want to know that in the report that I saw that they said that the reasons for carrying items like ice packs with the gel taken out and replaced with a claylike substance then duct tape with wire and batteries and pipes, they said some of the explanations were suspicious. Leading you to believe that they had a reasonable explanation for that.

Can you think of a single explanation on what would make a device like that reasonable?

EMERSON: No. The only thing you could think of is some kid who`s basically trying to test the system. You know, whose only motive is mischief.

But on the other hand, we don`t know what countries they were from. We don`t know what countries they visited. We don`t know whether, in fact, what their ethnicity is. Those are all things that are absolutely relevant in determining whether, in fact, there`s a pattern here of trying to blow up planes.

or anything else anywhere they feel like. :eek:

[Dot]

you know what is even weirder Alisa?
that after the TSA issued the security alert about wires in cheese...
they said it might not be bombs afterall..
So what *innocent* project couuld it be?

so I been trying to find the cheese battery..like the old potato battery..
I'm telling you we have BOOBS running this countries security..

and back to the end times:

On July 16, Max Blumenthall attended Christians United for Israel's annual Washington-Israel Summit. Founded by San Antonio-based megachurch pastor John Hagee, CUFI has added the grassroots muscle of the Christian right to the already potent Israel lobby. Hagee and his minions have forged close ties with the Bush White House and members of Congress from Sen. Joseph Lieberman to Sen. John McCain. In its call for a unilateral military attack on Iran and the expansion of Israeli territory, CUFI has found unwavering encouragement from traditional pro-Israel groups like AIPAC and elements of the Israeli government.

But CUFI has an ulterior agenda: its support for Israel derives from the belief of Hagee and his flock that Jesus will return to Jerusalem after the battle of Armageddon and cleanse the earth of evil. In the end, all the non-believers - Jews, Muslims, Hindus, mainline Christians, etc. - must convert or suffer the torture of eternal damnation. Over a dozen CUFI members eagerly revealed to him their excitement at the prospect of Armageddon occurring tomorrow.

Among the rapture ready was Republican Former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay. None of this seemed to matter to Lieberman, who delivered a long sermon hailing Hagee as nothing less than a modern-day Moses. Lieberman went on to describe Hagee's flock as "even greater than the multitude Moses commanded."

Max has attended dozens of Christian right conferences, regularly monitored movement publications and radio shows, and interviewed scores of its key leaders. He has never witnessed any spectacle as politically extreme, outrageous, or bizarre as the one Christians United for Israel produced last week in Washington.

[Alisa]

I *really* did admire the young lady's striking beauty. She could be the lovely Morena Baccarin's sister or cousin or distant relative, for all I knew. And Morena is originally from South America (Brazil). That's how beautiful this girl/young lady looked in the store. :)

I'm the *ugly duckling*, so when I see someone that pretty following me around.. it just makes me wonder, because usually it's the ugly ducklings following the "beautiful people" around, instead. ;)

you know what is even weirder Alisa?
that after the TSA issued the security alert about wires in cheese...
they said it might not be bombs afterall..
So what *innocent* project couuld it be?

in the situation I encountered - the *innocent* project - could be
basic food shopping... (hello world!)
Altho, since neither person had a shopping basket, in the store where I went shopping in, and they didn't pick anything up.. no -- that's *not* unusual. I've gone straight down to the bread aisle and back without a basket.. but at least, I didn't zig-zag around the aisles and take the scenic route in getting there. Nor did I follow complete strangers around the aisles to pass the time away, even if they've been my *strange* neighbors (strange, as in I don't know them personally.. some are strange in *other* ways, too!)... :p

The impression I got was more related to security with the cameras because of the way and how the guy was waltzing down the aisles, and the directions he went had no cameras. I've seen little kids do that, and one girl actually stuffed something under her coat a few years back! A random thought from literally no-where just questioned the situation as--

as if they were testing the system, to see who's watching where, and how something might be stolen or possibly planted...?? (so, was I in their visual line of sight way, or what?) That store is more preoccupied with its cameras near the cash registers, not in the back and around corners or frozen food sections.


And another point to make is -- if these problems reported on the radio are actually false alarms, that's no guarantee that someone in the future won't try such idiotic things, either. :rolleyes:
and also, if we're supposed to be *vigilant* -- that means ALL unusual behavior beyond the norm. As I said before, I've seen them both before several times (but don't know them), or someone who "looks" like them (and as a team, too).. and they've never shown that sort of behavior before, until this week. People tend to know who the regulars are around here, and what their habits are, too.. ;)


anywho.. A portion of an article's heading on RaidersNewsNetwork read as
"Head of American Intel Says Sleeper Cells In US Now, Waiting For Order To Carry Out Attacks"

here's a link and partial quote to the actual article-

posted on HAARETZ.com web site...
"Free Assad" (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/886051.html)
© Copyright 2007 Haaretz. All rights reserved

By Amir Oren
Thu., July 26, 2007 Av 11, 5767 (Israeli time)

...

The expected trigger for Hezbollah attacks, both in the secret assessment and the censored version, is if America or Israel crosses what McConnell calls a "red line" as far as Hezbollah is concerned: an attack on Iran. A response to this will shed American blood. Politicians will have to explain to the public, the day after a bombing in Iran and reprisals in Detroit or Los Angeles, why it has brought down this unnecessary trouble, which intelligence had warned about, on the tranquil civilians between the two oceans.
...

that's also *anticipating* if after any *potential* attacks occur, the ground beneath us hasn't been blown to smitherines, and people will be around and able to hear any news at all. So much confidence and optimism.

Attacking Iran is a BAD idea, period. If they don't have the ability to blow us off the map, they'll most likely have a back-up plan to send someone out who will. They have the OIL (moo-lah $$$) to pay out for such means.