Godless Trek Universe

[hmghosthost]

Star Tek has done everything possible to eliminate God from the world of the future, going so far as to spit in the face of all faithful Jews and Christians by having Dr. McCoy (Star Trek I) and Spock (Star Trek VI) refer to the Bible as MYTH, the concept of God a delusional fantasy (Star Trek V), and, even on this very site, in the Store, there is an insulting item meant to mock the Christian's fish symbol by including nacelles and the word TREK in it! It seems that IDIC doesn't include people of faith and homosexuals. I'd like to see you guys try to get away with mocking Islam that way! In fact, now that I think of it, the Star Trek universe is starting to look very Supremacist to me.

Any future that doesn't include my God - specifically Jesus of Nazareth, the creator of the universe which you put your little space ships in - is not a future I want to be part of. And there can be no future without God. The illogical argument that man is too wise and advanced to believe in the primative concept of a God is logically refuted by the biblical argument to the contrary: "Declaring themselves to be wise, they became fools; for the fool hath said in his heart, 'There is no God.'"

Star Trek does a great injustice to Faith, because it was the fight for freedon by people of Faith that acheived what we know as the United States of America - whose ideals of justice and liberty are at the very heart of a Star Trek future. As Carl Sagan so pointedly wrote in CONTACT that over 90% of the world's population believes in a god, a Star Trek future would effectively edit out those people. To my way of thinking, that makes the minority that would edit us out a very real and deadly threat to society. It is not those who believe in God who are insane (as Ted Turner claims), but those who do not. There is no greater threat to the fabric of America than the fall of the 1st Amendment, and a Star Trek future without God is like an America without that 1st Amendment. It is the total destruction of the right of free thought and the right to live by the dictates of our own conscience. But perhaps that is the goal and plot of those godless minority, eh?

To quote Harvey Fierstein, "All I need from anyone is love and respect, and anyone who can't give me those two things has no place in my life." I had a lot of respect for Gene Roddenberry and his Star Trek, so I did my part to help keep it alive. But Gene Roddenberry and his Star Trek had no respect for me and my God. Star Trek has edited out my God from my future. I have therefore edited out Star Trek from my life.

My "gripe" isn't against those who choose to ignore the existence of God (everyone has the right to be wrong); but against those who would presume to eliminate Him from the lives of others. True, religion has created a lot of of horrible things in the world. But that's because people foolishly confuse God with religion. God exists with or without religion or mankind's opinion of Him.

[That is my opinion and the only one of importance to me on this issue. If you plan to insult me and shout me down in your response it only serves to prove what a threat godlessness is to the world].

-Rev. Jim Cunningham
King James Bible Ministries
www.GayChristianSurvivors.com

[Cmdr DSefet]

Concidering ALL the people killed in the name of GOD (whatever name your faith gives him), it would seem NOT including GOD ANYWHERE would be a good thing! I wonder, with all the sins commited in his name by his "choosen" creatures (humans) is GOD even worthy to enter into heaven? By allowing sins to be commited and unpunished in his name he is as guilty as the Devil and should be judged the same!

[Occy]

Originally Posted by hmghosthost

Star Tek has done everything possible to eliminate God from the world of the future, going so far as to spit in the face of all Jews and Christians by having Dr. McCoy (Star Trek I) and Spock (Star Trek VI) refer to the Bible as MYTH, the concept of God a delusional fantasy (Star Trek V), and, even on this very site, in the Store, there is an insulting item meant to mock the Christian's fish symbol by including nacelles and the word TREK in it! It seems that IDIC doesn't include people of faith and homosexuals. I'd like to see you guys try to get away with mocking Islam that way! In fact, now that I think of it, the Star Trek universe is starting to look very Supremacist to me.

Any future that doesn't include my God - specifically Jesus of Nazareth, the creator of the universe you put your little space ships in - is not a future I want to be part of. And there can be no future without God. The illogical argument that man is too wise and advanced to believe in the primative concept of a God is logically refuted by the biblical argument to the contrary: "Declaring themselves to be wise, they became fools; for the fool hath said in his heart, 'There is no God.'"

Star Trek does a great injustice to Faith, because it was the fight for freedon by people of Faith that acheived what we know as the United States of America - whose ideals of justice and liberty are at the very heart of a Star Trek future. As Carl Sagan so pointedly wrote in CONTACT that over 90% of the world's population believes in a god, a Star Trek future would effectively edit out those people. To my way of thinking, that makes the minority that would edit us out a very real and deadly threat to society. It is not those who believe in God who are insane (as Ted Turner claims), but those who do not. There is no greater threat to the fabric of America than the fall of the 1st Amendment, and a Star Trek future without God is like an America without that 1st Amendment. It is the total destruction of the right of free thought and the right to live by the dictates of our own conscience. But perhaps that is the goal and plot of those godless minority, eh?

To quote Harvey Fierstein, "All I need from anyone is love and respect, and anyone who can't give me those two things has no place in my life." I had a lot of respect for Gene Roddenberry and his Star Trek, so I did my part to help keep it alive. But Gene Roddenberry and his Star Trek had no respect for me and my God. Star Trek has edited out my God from my future. I have therefore edited out Star Trek from my life.

My "gripe" isn't against those who chose to ignore the existence of God (everyone has the right to be wrong); but against those who would presume to eliminate Him from the lives of others. True, religion has create a lot of of horrible things in the world. But that's because people foolishly confuse God with religion. God exists with or without religion.

[That is my opinion and the only one of importance to me on this issue. If you plan to insult me and shout me down in your response it only serves to prove what a threat godlessness is to the world].

-Rev. Jim Cunningham
King James Bible Ministries
www.GayChristianSurvivors.com

Good lord...where does one start with a post like this?

As a Jew - I don't believe anyone has "spat" in my face. Then again I am - at best - agnostic - just Jewish by heritage.

Spock has every right to call the bible a myth - he is an alien - for that matter McCoy can too - freedom of speech etc

As a true Christian you should abhor homosexuality - I guess one interprets the bible as one sees fit? and the people who wrote parts of trek chose to see it as myth.

Religion has been the cause of so much pain in this world - people seem to confuse the ideas of faith and spirituality. You might want to try more of the latter and less of the former.

Are you any better or any worse?

Or to quote your favourite book - let he who is without sin cast the first stone...

[hmghosthost]

As it happens I am a Christian who is progay, and I do not apologize for it. Man says God hates gays. The Bible does not. That is what I was talking about in my first post about God and religion being two different things. However, I'm not here to argue theology with you. And using the ridiculous argument that we should leave God out because idiots kill in His name is absurd. I'll remind you that the Nazi Holocaust was not a religious war but an Atheistic white supremacist war. Nazi Germany and Communistic China, Cuba and the former USSR are perfect examples of what society and government becomes when Faith is prohibited by law, and the United States of America, Europe, Canada, Australia and New Zealand is a perfect example of what society and goverment becomes when the sovereign birthright to believe as you choose is protected. I'm so sick to death of non-god believers demanding that everyone accept them and that we should all have peace and get along even if we don't agree with you, and yet THEY won't do the same! These are the very peole who put their COEXIST stickers on their car right next to a sticker saying BRING BACK THE LION COLUSEUMS! I was at the gay pride protest last weekend in Ft. Lauderdale, and the very people who were picketing and demanding they be treated equal were also holding signs demanding that people of faith have their rights taken away. Well as a gay man and a person of faith, I'll tell all the "godless Star Trek future" people exactly what MY picket sign said that I carried at that protest, addressed to both the government, the Faith communities and the gay community: "WE ARE SOVEREIGN CITIZENS, NOT YOUR SUBJECTS - YOU WILL NOT DICTATE OUR RIGHTS." To all sides - the proGod, antiGod, progay, antigay, I say, the same eraser you arrogantly and self righteously use to take away the rights of others will come back to obliterate yours. You try and cut God out of the world and you're in for a nasty shock. HE is Lord of this universe, it is HIS property, whether you like it or not, and whether or not you choose to believe in Him or deceive yourself and pretend He isn't there - as Star Trek has done for 40 years - He will never go away.

CMDR DSEFET, you said, "Concidering ALL the people killed in the name of GOD (whatever name your faith gives him), it would seem NOT including GOD ANYWHERE would be a good thing! I wonder, with all the sins commited in his name by his "choosen" creatures (humans) is GOD even worthy to enter into heaven? By allowing sins to be commited and unpunished in his name he is as guilty as the Devil and should be judged the same!"
Now here is an interesting argument (however insanely ignorant).

I hear from one side of the anti-god people that they reject God because He is so big, bad and mean for punishing people and sending them to hell. They say "what kind of God is that who says He loves us and then sends us to hell for disobedience." And here you are saying God is evil like the devil because he doesn't punish wicked people! You lot of people have so deceived yourselves you can't even get the story right. Had you actually taken the time to read the Bible itself ALL THE WAY THROUGH - instead of daring to judge your Creator based on what other fallible mortals have to say about Him, you wouldn't be in this mental disaster that you've made for yourself. People do wicked things because people are wicked. God does righteous things because He is righteous. Because God is righteous, wicked people do things in His name in order to give their wickedness authority in the eyes of the stupidly blind who willingly ignored God's righteousness and His warnings about them. Had you listened to HIM you would not have been deceived by the wicked people, and you wouldn't be so arrogant as to accuse HIM for man's stupidity. God DOES punish and He WILL punish those who do wickedly - and He will especially punish those who do wicked things in His name. Haven't you ever heard the 2nd commandment, "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain. The Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh the name of the Lord in Vain"? That doesn't mean not to use His name in a curse; it means we are forbidden to take (use/carry) His name for our own vanity. If you had read the Bible you would have seen this instead of shooting your mouth off with false accusations against Him. And all of you that want a godless Star Trek future have no idea of the total ignorance you are in by wishing such a thing. You remind me of the children in the episode "MIRI'S WORLD". You are FREE to disbelieve in your Creator. But you have no more right to force that view on others than the religious community does.

For my side, this isn't a religious fight. This is a fight for the protection of EVERYONE'S sovereign right to believe as they choose without being descriminated against. What shocks me the most is that this even has to be an issue in the advanced Star Trek way of thinking.

[Natira]

Well, aren't you just the happy camper.

[Mriana]

Oh good grief! Anything I say could say might cause the board to explode. Although I didn't do too bad with that knight dude. Alisa and I seem to do OK without exploding the board.

The question is, hmghosthost, which god? One of the many Hindu gods? I do like that Mr. H. He's a great deity. Then there is that elephant kid. Way COOL! How about the Muslim god? The Quran states Christans are infidels and Jews are pigs. In some places of the Quran, women are worth 1/2 a man. Nice deity. NOT! The Jewish Yehweh? Buddha, who's more of a prophet, but also had a mythical virgin birth? How about Krishna (Christ) the incarnation of Vishnu (God). Shiva? No? It has to be YOUR Jesus of Nazareth? Nice! There goes WWIII, yet one more Crusade. Please don't hit that red button because not everyone accepts your god concept and hopefully the Islamics who think you are an infidel going to hell don't push the button either. Remember they want their prophet to decend from the clouds too.

Also, God doesn't punish anyone. That is only in the stories found in various religious texts all written and inspired by HUMANS. It's the humans who do these things or it is just nature. There is no supernatural behind any of the struggles we go through. Even Episcopal Monks said that about the fires in California that burnt down their home:

Monks, now homeless, look to future after wildfires destroy monastery

These are Episcopal monks not Catholic Monks, with the mention of Episcopal nuns (sisters).

The ruins of Mount Calvary -- a small pile of books and furnishings in a corner -- are sad reminders of what once was. The vast heaps of rubble, the partially eaten walls, and the collapsed beams all call attention to the supremacy of nature, rather than the supernatural. Guests of the mountaintop now appear to be in awe of -- not God's power -- but the command of fire."

Oh yes, I can hear the stupidity of the superstitious, but no, this was not punishment from some mythical deity concerning a gay bishop or marrying gay couples, which the Episcopal church married married before the stupidly superstitious pushed that Prop 8 on people and got it past. The truth is, the ignorance about gays is the same thing as the anti-interracial marriage laws (mostly in the South) years ago, but the Lovings took it clear to the Supreme Court. All one has to do is change the applicable words and it's the same thing! I have yet to be zapped by Zeus for marrying a Black man and having his children. I serious doubt there is a deity who will zap anyone for marrying someone of the same sex, who mind you, they love dearly, just as dearly as a hetero. George Tekei can attest to his love to his partner Brad who he married recently.

Oh but you are Pro-Gay so that is superfulous to you, but you can put in whatever you want to call punishment from YOUR god and I will show you how it is not.

OK That's two stupid things that came out of ignorant superstitious religon and there are many more. I could spend forever on such a subject but I won't.

The Tao. That's a good one and one of the Daoist writers (Lao Tzu, I beleive) refused to describe God and even said to try and describe God is to not describe God at all. So if you didn't try to describe YOUR God and put it into words, you'd have nothing to impose on others.

God is a human concept. Humans created all the various deities and none are necessarily right. The Bible, as well as other religious texts, are NOT inerrant for they were ALL written and inspired by humans, not some deity. God is anything a human makes it, even a cat (Bast), a monkey (Hanuman), or even an elephant (Genesh). There are some who believe in an old man in the sky (ST:TNG Justice, is a futuristic example) who can zap you with lightening at a whim, but that god does not exist. Know how to kill a god? Stop believing in it. It has been done many times, only to be revived, rewritten, and set to a specific culture. The Hebrews were once polytheists and many of their stories came from Babylonia, Assyria, even Egypt. They rewrote the stories and set them to their people's culture. The same goes with the NT.

I'll remind you that the Nazi Holocaust was not a religious war but a white supremacist war.

HA! They have their own "Christian" religion. White Supremists groups all do and they base their beliefs on the Bible. They even have White Christian groups called Christian Identity. Check it out: http://www.splcenter.org/intel/map/hate.jsp They all base their White Supremecy beliefs on the Bible and call themselves Christians. Such things DO have a lot to do with religion. The Holocaust was VERY religious and Hitler was a Catholic.

I'm so sick to death of all you non-god believers demanding that everyone accept you and that we should all have peace and get along even if we don't agree with you, and yet YOU won't do the same!

Really? Remember, I said God is a human concept? So before you accuse people of not believing in a deity, just because it's not YOUR deity, ponder that, for you never know what their concept of a deity is or is not. It could be the wind or pure energy or some sort of element that is within every living thing, including the earth and the universe, or even the universe itself. It maybe nature or many others things. I wouldn't be so sure people don't have a god, they just might not call it a god though. Even liquor could be a person's god, yet they might not say as much.

The truth is, we should leave God out things that have nothing to do with mythical beings and point out the myth where appropriate. I do just fine until someone comes along and starts insisiting on THEIR god. Once one starts imposing THEIR god on people, as it feels you have with your posts, that is when I get my dander up. I do not believe in a God who punishes for the things humans are prejudice against. Humans are the once who decide what and who is punished by their god concept, not some deity. It ALL boils down to the human and human nature when all is said and done.

BTW, I have probably read the Bible all the way through more than most of the people here have, including you. I've studied many religions and taken many courses on Christianity itself. Part of that IS reading the book cover to cover and sometimes more than once, esp if you take more than one religious course on a specific topic. I've also covered it many times with scholars within the Episcopal Church itself, some well known. I have also taken psychology courses on top of it all. Not to mention, I have written my fair share of papers concerning religion, some not even on my website or on the web.

I am a Religious Humanist who is a member of the Episcopal Church, just as Robert M. Price is. I am not anti-God or anti-Christian, but I do get very fed up very quickly when one insists THEIR god must be in the future. It's YOUR concept and nothing more. Oh wait! Horus is here today. He's called Jesus. Krishna (incarnation of God)/Christ (incarnation of God) here today. Mithra/Christ, here. Pisces symbol for Jesus (Astrotheology)... The list goes on and on, God and it's incarnation has not gone away.

Christianity, as well as all of today's religions, is just evolved Paganism, so the myth of the past is still here today and it probably will be tomorrow, but it might be symbolized as Aquarius and called something other than Jesus, but I seriously doubt God will go away entirely. Although with the end of the Age of Pisces does come the Age of Aquarius, which is the age of Enlightenment (no it's not just a song, it's Astrotheology), so there might not be another Joshua/Jesus or Krishna/Kristo/Cristo/Christ.

The best we can hope for in the future is that people keep their god concepts to themselves and not push them on others, as well as be more humane than their religious text they so love to hit people over the heads with, which IS what you are doing with your "Jesus of Nazareth". This means there more than likely will be no god of any kind in Trek, for they are all human concepts, some very superstitiously mythical at that. And there should not be any mythology that people live by in Trek either, esp if they are educated. Most of all, they well hopefully have some reason and compassion for others. This means not insisting YOUR Jesus of Nazareth be everywhere. This goes for all the other religious God/men or prophets too, not just the various Christian concepts of a deity, and trust me there are many different concepts of the Christian god, not just yours alone.

Missed this:

Rev. Jim Cunningham
King James Bible Ministries

You of all people should know better, esp if you really are rev who's actually studied religion. Why am I not surprised? However, the KJV is one of the worst translations, but that is opinion, which quite a bit has been spouted from you already, so I see nothing wrong with opinion from myself and others. It also seems you only focus on the hurt of one group of people. There are far more people who have been hurt by religion than just gays. I find Bishop Spong and alike, even Bob Price, a former Baptist minister, better ministers. You have only scraped a little part of "Sins of Scripture" and alike.

Looking at your Statement of Faith, you ain't Episcopalian (already ruled out long ago that you aren't a Humanist). UGH! I wouldn't recommend anyone who is easily sickened by religion to read the Statement of Faith. There is theophagy and more difficult to stomach stuff written all over the statement. I'd read Bishop Spong's book, "Jesus For the Non-religious" before reading that statement again. Seems someone needs to read Jack Spong's 12 Theses, as well as his other books. At best, he might lighten up a little with his Statement of Faith, even his own beliefs.

[Occy]

Mriana - marry me...

[Mriana]

Well, you're not my dream man, but you will do.

[hmghosthost]

THE POINT IS... Rod asked us to talk about the things in the Star Trek Universe that we would not be happy with in a real Star Trek Future of our world. I don't know why YOU are here, but that is why I am here. The issue isn't "which god?". The issue is that the Star Trek Universe as Gene defines it is intentionally devoid of religious faith - of any god whatsoever and the right to believe in a god - as part of the human experience, unless it is made into a joke like "the worm hole aliens" or the alien on Shakari. That is MY issue with a Star Trek universe. Whining and bitching about what you don't like regarding the PARTICULARS of religious faith is irrellivant because it has nothing to do with the general issue of a lack of religious faith in the future.

[waxy]

Memory is getting weaker as I get older but in "Data's Day" in his log didn't he refer to that particular day as being some kind of Muslim holy day?

[waxy]

Hey I actually just saw this. It is from the Remastered Star Trek "The Cage" and is one of the images on Spock's screen as the Taolsians are probing the ship. Suddenly Trek doesn't seem as Godless

[Mriana]

Originally Posted by hmghosthost

THE POINT IS... Rod asked us to talk about the things in the Star Trek Universe that we would not be happy with in a real Star Trek Future of our world. I don't know why YOU are here, but that is why I am here. The issue isn't "which god?". The issue is that the Star Trek Universe as Gene defines it is intentionally devoid of religious faith - of any god whatsoever and the right to believe in a god - as part of the human experience, unless it is made into a joke like "the worm hole aliens" or the alien on Shakari. That is MY issue with a Star Trek universe. Whining and bitching about what you don't like regarding the PARTICULARS of religious faith is irrellivant because it has nothing to do with the general issue of a lack of religious faith in the future.

OK I'll lay it out for you. I am here because I am a humanist and I would like to see more of that because I think highly of Humanism. What you don't get is, there are different forms of Humanism. Secular, Religious, Cultural, Christian, Jewish, Islamic, Spiritual, literary... The list goes on and on.

I am a Cultural Humanist in that I grew up with Christianity (Evangelical Fundamentalism to be exact), BUT I had a great uncle who returned from WWII (a medic) as an atheist. Even when I left home I didn't exactly leave Christianity, but went to the Episcopal Church. Even there we can see a lot of humanistic values. I studied religion under Victor H. Matthews, an Episcopalian who wrote Old Testament Parallels, as well as others scholars, and frankly, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all rewritten mythology from Egypt, Babylonia, etc, as I said before, as well as a lot of paganism. I ended up meeting Spong of course and eventually Bob Price, who I have learned a lot from also.

I am a Religious Humanist because I do study religion, but know religious texts are stories written by humans with their concept of a deity. You can have your concept of god, just don't impose it on anyone else. Ah yes. I also hear you saying, "But Humanism is a non-theistic belief". It is, but even as Spong told me when I brought up humanism because he writes things that sound very humanistic, not knowing I am one he replied, "Humanism is not anti-God or anti-Christian." BTW, Spong calls himself a non-theist also.

However, I would not say humanists are godless though. Saying they are godless makes it sound like there are little gods running all over the place without a human and in dire need of a human. I can get that with my cats very well. They have a human. Three humans actually. It also depends on what you mean by God and the humanist you are talking to at the time. Carl Sagan, a humanist, made that point quite clear when he said:

The idea that God is an oversized white male with a flowing beard who sits in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow is ludicrous. But if by God one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying... it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity. [Carl Sagan]

AND if you look in the back of Star Trek Creator: The Authorized Biography of Gene Roddenberry you will see even he, a humanist, had his own definition too, but he rejected other diffentions.

From page 568:

I think God is as much a basic ingredient in the universe as neutrons and positrons; I suspect there is a scientific equation in matter and time and energy, and we'll ultimately discover the missing ingredient. God is, for lack of a better term, clout. This is the prime force, when we look around the universe.

I agree, but I think it is more chemistry, but that is due to my psychology background with a focus on neuro-psych. Now that is not saying he did or didn't believe in a god, it's just his concept was his personal one, not an impersonal one, which he more or less states on the bottom of p. 568-569:

My experiences with the loose term "God" have not been a total sweep of understanding, but rather a slow putting together of a bit of this and a bit of that. God is a very personal and selfish concept to all of us, because we have no total certainty. Yet putting together these small pieces is the beginning of the feeling of Godliness.

You'll have to read the whole of Appendix II to get the real jest of it, but the point is, everyone has their own personal concept, which is not necessarily Christian, but that doesn't mean we aren't culturally Christian.

Some of us take stock in the Gospel of Thomas sayings 3 and 77 even, which basically says it's all right here! This is it. Heaven, hell, both... All on earth, which is even more reason to enjoy the one and only life we have, for this life is what we make it. At the same time, IF it is within everything and everyone, then IMO it must be some sort of chemical element the is within everything including that tree log. Yet, like the Taoist, I really can't even begin to explain it and won't even try.

I was raised on Trek. I was also raised on Dr Spock (not to be confused with Mr. Spock), the Baby Doctor. I have had more humanism in my life than anything else, but religion in our world cannot be escaped and if you remember the TNG episode "Data's Day", he was questioning religion. In that process, Catholicism, and Christianity as a whole, was covered with respect, and yes, even Islam was mentioned. Religion or anyone's god concept was not neglected, but with so many different species, there cannot be one god belief and none should dominate the other. Therefore, it cannot be a "Davey and Goliath" show (BTW, cute little show the Lutherans came up with).

Kirk used reason in the Movie 5 when he asked why God needed a starship. It was not disrespect for any deity, but pointing out a fallicy some people have. There is no god who needs a starship.

Without science people can become like those in the TNG episode "Justice" in which they believed in a "sky god" that wasn't really a god at all. Apollo, from TOS "Who Mourns for Adonis", covered religion also as well as "Plato's Step Childern". DS9 was full of gods and prophets and Klingons had their religion. Not to mention, Audra, in TNG, who was a fake and there are many of those in RL. So religion was never neglicted.

As for what Rod asked, I believe he asked what our gripes are with Star Trek. Not our gripes about a real future world of Trek. UGH! If a future was people imposing their god concept on me, be it Christian, Muslim, Jewish (that is rare), Hindu, Buddhist (rare also), Tao (non-existant), I would not like such a world one bit. We have that now and I can't stand it! It causes disputes between Christians (the Episcopal and more hardline Anglicans are a prime example). It cause disputes, even war between two different religions (ie Christain and Islam). I wouldn't have a world like you are proposing for it leaves very little room for the human and gives no credit to the human. It seems to me like a bunch of superstitious mumbo jumbo. It makes no sense to me why you need the KJV or any religious text to support homosexuality. That book is NOT God nor was it written by any deity. No religious text is God or written by a deity and they are all only human concepts of a deity. Humans do not need a religious text to decide what is good or bad, but only their own intellect and concious.

I have yet to meet any Secular Humanist who says harming another is good. They don't believe in harming others if they can help it and they have no god to harm to anyone in its name. Most religious people do harm in the name of their deity. Seems better to me to not have a deity to blame for you actions, but your own self, for humans are the only ones to blame for what they to do each other.

IF I had a choice, I'd rather have a world full of Secular Humanists than a world full of people like you, who storm onto a board demanding that their god be there or life isn't worth living. Then again, if your god isn't there, I guess you wouldn't find life worth living and see little value in family, friends, pets, nature, just being alive. So, I guess I really wouldn't have to worry about you.

The only reason why you think there can be no future without your deity, is because, for some reason, you can't see any value in life without your particular god concept, but there are so many other concepts that your way isn't necessarily preferable to others. Take the American Indian for example... Some may think life would have been better if the White man had never come from Europe to destroy their cultural, their way of life, and enforce their strange god on them, bringing Smallpox and other diseases along with their religion. Think about it.

I don't believe what we are saying to you is whining about anything nor is it irrellivant. Our view is only irrellivant to you, because you don't want to hear what we have to say. Almost as bad as the White man to the American Indian (which I am also 1/8). So basically when you say it is whining and irrellivant, I don't see it as being any different. Lack of religious faith would be better than what you are doing and saying. Somehow, I also have a feeling you may just be one of those White men that so many American Indians can't stand either. We don't need any faith in such religious superstition. What we need is faith in ourselves to do what needs to be done to make earth better than it is today.

[Occy]

Yes - as a woman I'm hardly your ideal man

I think your issue hmghosthost - aside from stuttering apparently - is that your God is not portrayed as YOU believe He should be.

Why is your God the right one?

I think it's funny. As a Jew - not practicising - I have been told by fundy Christians that they will pray for me, and that I am going to hell because I do not accept Jesus as my one true lord.

Now this has always disturbed me - and it is perhaps a sign of how much I really do know about religion (or more correctly not know). I believe one of the ten commandments is along the lines of "thou shalt worship no false idols?"

Now if this is true - doesn't Jesus come under that tag? He isn't God - thus he is not God *g*

Some will come and say - rather than the son of God, Jesus is Gods phsyical manifestation on earth.

I say bollocks!!

In fact - bollocks to all religion. It causes nothing but pain and suffering. IMO - as it applies to ME.

You speak of the Holocaust yet know little about it it seems. If not a religious vendetta then why pull out ONE group? The Jews. Others did die - this is true - but the original "Final Solution" was Hitler wanting to rid the world of Jews. I may not be a religious scholar, but I am a trained historian - which is why so much of religion puzzles me.

The fighting in Israel? It is about religion - it is about control of Jerusalem. Take Jerusalem out of the picture and you would see a completely different situation.

Ireland - religious war - proddys v caths - same bloody religion - just different strains

The mumbai attacks - guess why they attacked westerners?

9-11 - call it what you like, at the basic root of it - it was a religious war - a fatwah against America and its wholly Christian approach!

Why do you think missionaries are often the first killed? They are sent to these places to espouse their religious beliefs on people they feel are godless - though those people may already have a god, or a thousand gods or no need for a god.

The problem with fundamentalism is the fundamentalists - Christian, Muslim, Jewish, whatever. You sir, need to work out if you fall under this banner. It seems to me that you might. Are you going to deny that anyone who doesn't believe in YOUR god is a heathen?

Star Trek - CANNOT and SHOULD NOT - cater for one or any religion. It is something beyond religion. Have your God - believe in Him - pray to Him - celebrate Him - but don't you dare shove Him down my throat. If Trek did that, I would stop watching. If I want religious mumbo jumbo I would grab a box of kleenex and stick a season of Touched by an Andrew (err...Angel) in the DVD player.

His Royal Highness - King Abdullah of Jordan - is a trekkie - he was even in an episode of Voyager. This British educated, Muslim leader is a fan of a show that starred predominantly Jewish actors (Shatner, Nimoy, Koenig for starters) and was developed by people who are for better or worse mostly Christian. How much better can the world be when things like that are true?

Star Trek is about a message of acceptance. I accept you hmghosthost - I accept that you are firm in your beliefs, that you have trouble seeing a point of view that is not your own and that you are entitled to be who you are. Do you afford me the same? Do you accept who I am? Or do you think I should change to suit your image of the world?

[Occy]

Just wanted to add that I am probably heading towards Humanism without the specieism side of it - I believe it is our duty to look after our world and that includes the animals within it. Which is why I am poor lol - dogs cost me an arm and a leg.

[Mriana]

Originally Posted by Occy

Yes - as a woman I'm hardly your ideal man

Seems my hard laughter and joking were taken well.

BTW, well said, but as for Humanism, it does include taking care of the planet and the other animals on the planet, because it is in our best interest as human beings.