Godless Trek Universe

[Occy]

The idea of love thy neighbour may be the basis of some Christianity, however, is it not more of a moral decision that can and should be undertaken by anyone regardless of religion?

Also in Judiasm there is none of this love thy neighbour Christian brotherhood business

[Alisa]

Originally Posted by Occy

The idea of love thy neighbour may be the basis of some Christianity, however, is it not more of a moral decision that can and should be undertaken by anyone regardless of religion?

ahhh, thus the *golden rule*.. help one another, be kind to one another.
I've seen that in many Star Trek eps.

What is the exploration of space beyond earth, except "to explore strange new worlds" and treat its various lifeforms with the utmost respect, if possible. Maybe that is a paraphrase of some biblical passage somewhere, but it follows the golden rule principle of treating one another with kindness. Where do the myths in various legends actually begin and the morality follow?

I'll leave the semantics of those details up to everyone else who is more well versed in Star Trek's legendary adventures and knowledge, since I will admit being more mildly interested in the stories, and that has more to do with my realization later in life that I do enjoy sci-fi more than I cared to admit in my younger years.. so I missed out on many details, and only have DVD's and Tv repeats to rely on, besides whatever is posted in these forums.

It was only within a few years ago that I realized -- I am more into fantasy/sci-fi than science-based sci-fi.. and probably because I lack the detailed knowledge skills of science. ..And for some weird reason, Stargate isn't as *techno babble* filled as Star Trek is --even tho Dr's Sam Carter and Rodney McKay could run circles around our brains with their scientific theories and solutions.. I can understand most of the scientific / theory lingo in Stargate more than Star Trek, but I think in Star Trek --it's where some of the plots have gone (romance or spiritual of something else) on why I've gotten lost in the midst many times..

I adored Scotty and his quest to forever keep the warp drive operational, but how it was done is beyond my comprehension. Some of Spock's and Data's technical speeches made me react more like Kirk and Dr. McCoy if being within hearing distance.. more like "hunh? ..okay, whatever you say."

--Science, in general, was NOT amongst my favorite subjects.. sort of ranked along with grammar and history and math.. the only reason why I got A's and B's in any of those classes was because I was good at memorizing, but forgot everything as soon the tests were all done and over with..
..and no, that is not really something to be proud of, because in the process, I've also learned that I have a 2-second memory capability. I forget as fast as I've been told something, unless it's something I'm seriously interested in. Except even in those areas that fascinate me to learn more, I still have to read and re-read, and re-read. Repetition helps reinforce certain thoughts, but with me, it takes extra effort.

I do truly admire people with photographic memories. I wish I had one. It'd make communication skills flow so much faster and much more fluently without putting in that extra effort all the time. *sigh*

[Occy]

I dont have a photographic memory - however I do have a science degree along with my other degrees. I like the idea that trek is art imitating life imitating art

[Mriana]

Originally Posted by Alisa

*grumble* .. I think you're being overly technical in the entire writing down of various thoughts.

Sorry if I talk over your head.

[solkar]

God is present whether one likes it or not. Many examples exist in the Star Trek Universe:
TOS -Tomlinson gets married...why, because it is sanctioned by God
TWOK - Kirk, "maybe God is right here", points to heart
TNG - Picard notes Q is not a god,why, cause God is omnipresent

What Trek often disputes is the religious practice (except where noted and of course Yar's memorial service) and even the KJV notes that God does not require these things...the Covenant of Grace only imparts that 'God Loves us as much as we love Him' and we show our love by the devotion of our hearts unto Him by following His simple ten laws.

I agree with Sisko where he notes that 'what is wrong with Earth is that it is too much like paradise' which takes away from the endeavor imposed for our indiscretions to toil by the sweat of our brows. The Enterprise essentially could be controlled totally by subspace commands to an unmanned ship. This too would be wrong for it would displace the human understanding necessary to deal with the alien races encountered - unless each contact was to be enforced by force!

There is of course a course titled "Religion in Star Trek" (I got the professor's notes and text) and found it enlightening. You cannot avoid imparting religious precepts if you are going to present humanoid societies. The word "society" imparts a unifying philosophy which either gets labelled 'pagan mythology', 'polytheistic pluralism', or religion. Religion being obscured, like history is to the one who gets to write the book, by the interpretation of the practisioner. Has any of you Christians actually delved into the deeper roots of the Torah and Rabbianics of Judaism ... the more you dig the more it looks like Roman Mythology!

Oh, yes, Star Trek is riddled with religion overtones without exploring any concept of Humans being God's chosen children or the Earth being the centre of Creation. As Nigilum (TNG) said, "prepare for death as you personally chose", not 'here is what I think of your Holier than Thou philosophies of a Divine Intervenor'.

[Mriana]

Originally Posted by solkar

There is of course a course titled "Religion in Star Trek" (I got the professor's notes and text) and found it enlightening. You cannot avoid imparting religious precepts if you are going to present humanoid societies. The word "society" imparts a unifying philosophy which either gets labelled 'pagan mythology', 'polytheistic pluralism', or religion. Religion being obscured, like history is to the one who gets to write the book, by the interpretation of the practisioner. Has any of you Christians actually delved into the deeper roots of the Torah and Rabbianics of Judaism ... the more you dig the more it looks like Roman Mythology!

Yes, what you said in your post is what I've been saying and I mentioned the book by the same titled as the course you mentioned (I'd love to take that course too). BTW, the Bible is very much like Roman and Egyptian mythology, as well as many others.

[hmghosthost]

You all seem to think that I was seeking your consent or approval for my opinion regarding the godlessness of a Star Trek future.

I wasn't.

But your delirious thoughts about stamping out religion in the future is an illogical circular argument. Faith in a God is a personal decision made with the mind and heart, and no humanist, atheist, or even the Antichrist himself, can control or dictate that. And incidently, LACK of faith is a religion, too. Religion is, specifically, what you believe about God, whether you believe He does or does not exist. You do not have the right to NOT believe in a God if it is your intent to take away the birthright of others to BELIEVE in a God. Trying to stamp out religion in a Star Trek future also stamps out anti-religion.

[Mriana]

Obviously you didn't read all the posts. I, as well as a few others, pointed out that Trek was not godless and also did not say anything about stamping out religion. IF you had read the posts then you would have read that at least two of said that religion was there and the belief was as individual as the various cultures were.

Also, IF you had read the posts, you would have noticed that some of said the idea of god is a human concept. It is as individual as how we view, for example a woman- some see the woman as their mother, some see her as their wife, others a friend, an employee, and some people view her as just another woman. No one can dictate anyone's view of said woman. It would be like telling me I had to view my mother as you do. It cannot be done.

I think we can agree there are no monkey gods, right? So, the same goes with the Hindu god Hanuman or any Hindu god. You'd be an atheist in that respect because you don't believe Hanuman is a god or any other deity of Hinduism. So would I because I just see Hanuman as a cool monkey in a story and doesn't really exist.

Are you really without a god though because you do not believe the Hindu gods are running around all over the place? How can one be godless if they don't believe said god(s) exist? They can't be nor can there be any Hindu gods running around without a human if one doesn't see any evidence that they exist. Does Bast exist? Are you "godless" because the cat god doesn't exist? No, of course not, because Bast isn't real, unless of course you worship cats. But you are an atheist in that respect. THAT is atheism in a nutshell. The thing is, true atheists believe in one less god than you do and there aren't any gods running around without a human, anymore than Bast is running around homeless and without humans.

Call us what you want, but the truth is, not everyone believes in YOUR god concept, but that does not mean they are godless or even have a lack of belief because THEIR concept of a deity is not yours or is non-existant like Bast is to you. At one time, Christians were considered atheists because they did not believe in the common gods that were surrounding them. To them, there was no evidence that those other deities existed, so they were no more real than Hanuman is to you.

Thus, there are the gods of Bajor, Kronos, Betazed ("Thank the deities of Betazed!" Lwaxana said. There are three of them at least), etc etc. Religion does exist in Star Trek, but it is a very personal subject and is therefore not discussed very often. I suggest you check out DS9, where the Bajorans talk of their religion quite often, before you say Star Trek is godless. Also see "Data's Day" where even Islam and Xianity is discussed briefly.

Sorry if it's not your deity, but religion is there and so are the gods, including those of Betazed.

[Inzjana]

To me Star Trek is a religion, I watch it religiously!

[waxy]

Originally Posted by Mriana

I think we can agree there are no monkey gods, right?

Unless we found ourselves on The Planet of the Apes.

[Mriana]

Fair enough, but I was talking about people who aren't Hindu, and even some of those who are, see Hanuman as a story and not real.

Loved The Planet of the Apes. I'm sure Hanuman would too.

[KHS]

Originally Posted by Mriana

Page 9 it states that even Gene "conceded that in his vision of the future relgious belief and practice does not so much disappear as retire to the private realm".

They quote Gene:

I agree that religion should be private and there shouldn't be any evangelizing. Now that is a future I would very much prefer. Page 9 points out that the Abrahamic religions are there, but they aren't as in your face as we see today.

This may be what Gene intended, but I disagree in one respect, and that is "they don't go around discussing them with other people." That's fine as an explanation for Star Trek, I can see it not being relevant to the show necessarily, but in terms of real life in the here and now, I think that way leads to spiritual poverty in the same way only talking about it with members of one's own faith leads to narrow-mindedness. I think there is a place for communal worship, teaching, and discussion, and that doesn't need to be limited to those of my own faith. I am a Christian and I do agree that confrontational evangelism is counterproductive, but if something is important to you, don't you want to talk about it with your friends and loved ones?

[Mriana]

I'm very selective who I discuss my personal beliefs with in detail. However, if asked or somehow brought up in conversation, I will reveal a little of what I believe, esp if I don't feel I will be attacked for my thoughts and views. The thing is, few people understand it unless they have a similar concept and I have found a few people, both theists and non-theists, who comprehend it. The reason for this selectivism is because my personal views sometimes cause more conflicts then refering to the various different views, esp here in the Bible Belt. IF I run into the wrong person, they become truly confrontational Evangelists and sometimes I (or anyone else) don't even have to say a word for them to start strongly imposing their views.

For example, if I told you, "No, I don't believe in an old man in the sky who throws lightening bolts at people who do something that doesn't meet his approval" or more nicely put, "I believe IT is more like chemistry (ie neuro-chemistry), an element found in virutally everything, that is found within everyone and every living being on the planet, within the earth, and even the universe" or "even like the wind" and is numinous (definition #3 in Webster), depending on your own Christian beliefs, you could very well start screaming epitaphs. I've had it happen many times before, even from my own mother. Naturalistic/non-theistic views aren't always taken very well unless one has a similar concept and/or personal experience. The superstitious view is quite common and very much imposed in the Bible Belt- ie "God sent the Katrina to Louisana because they supported gays." Does this mean I don't appreciate the various religious texts in some form? No, it does not, but I don't take them literally, which also would trigger an attack from some extremely religious, esp in this area.

Does this mean I don't grow or in your words suffer from "spiritual poverty"? No, it does not. I find I grow very much due to human nature and experiencing human compassion, as well as having compassion myself. I find there can be great "spiritual" growth in believing in the human potential and listening to others that I have great respect for. In fact, and I realize you have not heard of Sweet Reason, but I've taken a page out of her book as well as other Humanists, like Greg Epstein and even Gene. One of Sweet Reason's thoughts is taking words used by the religious and giving them meaning that has great meaning for me. I've also borrowed some thoughts and ideas from Bishop John Shelby Spong and alike. Then there is my older son, who is a professed Buddhist. I have learned a few things from him too. Oh and trust me, I have read, studied, and researched many religious texts and myths of the past, not just the traditional Christian texts. Thus, I know that what Bishop Spong says about God being a human concept, is accurate, but I have taken pages out of various religious texts too and applied them just as I have the thoughts of other humans. So, I am hardly deprived of spiritualness, depending on your definition of spiritual, but through all this research I have developed my own thoughts on the topic, which I share sporatically here, to some people's disgruntal. (Hey look! Stargate has the Norse god, Thor! It's a cute egg-headed alien! )

Why share one's views if one is just going to be attacked? I feel it's far better to seek out those who have similar thoughts, as well as, share their thoughts, or discuss them where one is safer from attacks, than to be attacked by those who would impose their views on you. There is no growth when one is being hit over the head with a book and their minds being filled with superstition. Instead, there is more pain and suffering, as well as great harm done, even wars, and it all comes right back to the humans who are doing the imposing. Until silly superstitions, such as ones like Katrina and the Rapture, are removed and replaced by education, such things will continue to happen.

So, no, I don't want to share all the things that are important to me with all my friends and loved ones. Only a select few who I know are safe or safer to discuss them with. Personally, I grow by listening to the thoughts and ideas of people I respect and even then it doesn't have much to do with religion, but it does have to do with what gives life meaning, which includes things that deal with human nature.

I think this is part of the point in Trek too, thus why personal views were rarely shared unlessed asked- like Janeway asking Chakotay about his Native American rituals and alike, in which he in turn was happy to share, in part because he felt comfortable sharing his beliefs with her and wanted to share them with her, but he didn't share them with the whole ship. Only once did Lwaxana thanked the gods of Betazed and that was only in front of her daughter. Worf didn't speak of his Klingon views much, except in a very few episodes dealing with Klingon philosophy. Kira didn't talk about the prophets much either, but it was brought up occassionally. Never once, though, were they ever forced on anyone and there were no wars over religious/spiritual views, unlike real life.

[Djura]

WOW , it took a while to read it all

Well at least I think we got one mention (wiccan) , they have not got rid of all us yet.

Anyway, i grew up with trek and so did my fiends, and they come from various faiths, it was never an issue as we have always seperated the idea that in the world star trek it creates a frame work where people can work and live without forcing any specific belief as it should be in a free society.

Anyway just felt i should say something after reading all these interesting comments

Thanks
Djura

[Mriana]

Hey, Djura, I have a couple of friends who are Wiccans- one being a Druid priest. I tease him about being a warlock, but Wiccans are cool though and I like that nature stuff (long story for those who don't know what I'm talking about). What kind of friend would I be if I didn't make note of them?

BTW, I even have a friend who worships Bast. Guess if you are going to have a god, Bast is a cool one.

The pagans and Wiccans are even better than some Christians that I've ran into because they don't impose their beliefs on anyone. Heck! Sometimes getting to share their beliefs and rituals (even in explaination) is like pulling eyeteeth sometimes. They can be very secretive about it, unless they are comfortable with you. I wouldn't mind going to one of my Druid priest friend's ceremonies, just to see what it is like. The details sound quite fun, almost like a Minbari ceremony, only out in the woods. It would have to be a great experience, even if it was just once.